Passenger Bill of Rights for air travel

[Diver Dennis]

I understand your point Dennis but it is now happening with increasding frequency, due to larger traveling population. We legislate how certain products perform all the time and what is reasonable to expect from a service you need performed. This kind of thing can happen for all sorts of reasons but what the proposed Bill is trying to prevent is, UNREASONABLE DELAYS THAT EXCEED 3 HOURS. I thinik it is not asking too much for an airline to pull out of line after 3 hours and give travelers an opportunity for alterntive travel, or money back, or something.

Yes, I do agree that even 3 hours is an excessive time to be waiting on a plane.

 

[OHGoDive]

Yes, time logged in the cockpit is part of shift time, and if I understand the "new" (actually been around for quite some time) criteria developed by the FAA and the airlines to increase the number of "on-time" departures, the minute that planes rolls back from the gate, it is listed as "Departed".

Thanks akbpilot. So, safety wasn't an issue in this debacle, since the crew would have been obligated to switch off if they had exceeded their allowed air time.

In at least one case (I think the 11 hour one), this was an inbound flight. It wasn't sitting there because JetBlue wanted on on-time departure, since it had already arrived. It's possible that someone was thinking that for flights that pushed away from the gates, but I suspect that this cluster wasn't solely due to someone looking out for better on-time performance.

 

[DennisW]

Folks, I am a pilot, not a commercial pilot, but a pilot nontheless. After the crew duty hours go to where the flight crew cannot make it to their destination within the allotted time (I forget how long that is), they are not allowed to take off. This is a Federal law.

If I were in the long aluminum tube on the ground for more than 6 hours, I'm pulling an emergency exit and leaving the plane. I may be arrested, but I can guarantee you that no jury in the country will convict. I would also sue the airline for false imprisonment and several other nasty things that would get plenty of media attention if I had not already made enough stink such that any charges (that may have been brought) would be dropped and the airline would back off and shut up.

 

[OHGoDive]

Because on that 11 hour flight, you have working toilets, clean drinkable water and hopefully an environment of heated (pretty cold at 35,000 feet), filtered air. That was not the case in any of these "flights".

Reality is that yes, you can see the terminal and there is no earthly reason why you cannot unload passengers from a parked plane that has backed up toilets and no water. Would an airline actually let a plane take off in a condition like that? Image adding 3 hours to your ordeal on a plane with overflowing toilets and NOT being able to get off the plane easily.

I understand that it is not good. But, I saw pictures and video from inside at least one of the planes. People did not look overheated (or underheated), they did not look malnourished or dehydrated. They were not covered in fecal matter.

I'm not arguing that this was an enjoyable experience for anyone involved. It was not. Obviously. But, keep it in perspective. Government intervention is not the answer.

BTW, I've been on flights that have run out of water, and had inoperable lavatories (not the same flight). And those planes were in the air. Things happen, they aren't the end of the world, and they don't require legislation.

 

[webhead]

The offer of a free flight from JETBLUE is not adequate or reasonbale compensation for 7 or 11 hours stuck on a plane. That is unacceptable to normal people. MY time, and yours, are worth more than a puny free flight.

Besides, if you do take the approach of 'never flying with them again' for what they did, this 'free flight' becomes worthless.

And the idea of sitting for 8 to 11 hours is like a long flight to some far awasy city. I ask you to try this - go sit in your car parked in the driveway for 2 hours. It's just like driving to work or somewhere on vacation.

 

[DandyDon]

Originally Posted by akbpilot

Yes, time logged in the cockpit is part of shift time, and if I understand the "new" (actually been around for quite some time) criteria developed by the FAA and the airlines to increase the number of "on-time" departures, the minute that planes rolls back from the gate, it is listed as "Departed".

That could be part of the problem.

Folks, I am a pilot, not a commercial pilot, but a pilot nontheless. After the crew duty hours go to where the flight crew cannot make it to their destination within the allotted time (I forget how long that is), they are not allowed to take off. This is a Federal law.

If I were in the long aluminum tube on the ground for more than 6 hours, I'm pulling an emergency exit and leaving the plane. I may be arrested, but I can guarantee you that no jury in the country will convict. I would also sue the airline for false imprisonment and several other nasty things that would get plenty of media attention if I had not already made enough stink such that any charges (that may have been brought) would be dropped and the airline would back off and shut up.

Yeah, that "get in, sit down, hold on, shut-up" suggested earlier here is okay for a while, but hours...?

What did you think of my group chaning with cell phone calls to the news?

 

[webhead]

How often does this happen? I would submit that the frequency is extremely low. It is definitely a screw-up and I'm not defending the airline or whoever caused it but as has been pointed out here the bad publicity will keep things like this from happening very often.

This length of time is uncommon but being parked on the tarmac at an airport, either before or after the actual flight, for say 1-3 hours is common. I can think of a dozen cases where I have been on a flight waiting for clearance to take off or worse, waiting for a gate to open up since we were 45 minutes early because of tail winds.

Sitting for an hour is bad but I can accept that. Waiting over 2 or 3 hours ..... :no

 

[OHGoDive]

Besides, if you do take the approach of 'never flying with them again' for what they did, this 'free flight' becomes worthless.

And the idea of sitting for 8 to 11 hours is like a long flight to some far awasy city. I ask you to try this - go sit in your car parked in the driveway for 2 hours. It's just like driving to work or somewhere on vacation.

This wasn't what I stated though.

Ok, so I go sit in my car in the driveway for 2 hours. At the end of that 2 hours, am I more tired than if I had been driving for 2 hours? Or less tired? Or the same?

If I turn the ignition and start driving at the end of the 2 hours, am I more unsafe behind the wheel than if I had already been driving for 2 hours? Or less unsafe? Or the same?

How do you quantify that?

Emotionally, I may be worse off. But, emotionally, the crew might have dealt with it better than the passengers. I'm guessing much better.

My point was, that you can't just say that the delayed party is somehow at more risk because the crew was sitting in a plane for all that time.

 

[webhead]

What did you think of my group chaning with cell phone calls to the news?

I like that idea. Image watching the cable news and seeing a picture box in the corner of a plane sitting on the airplane w/ a clock under it reading "time on board 6:13". They could run it all day w/ close ups of the people on board looking out the windows, holding up signs saying "tell my wife I'm ok" and "remember me".

 

[Diver Dennis]

This length of time is uncommon but being parked on the tarmac at an airport, either before or after the actual flight, for say 1-3 hours is common. I can think of a dozen cases where I have been on a flight waiting for clearance to take off or worse, waiting for a gate to open up since we were 45 minutes early because of tail winds.

Sitting for an hour is bad but I can accept that. Waiting over 2 or 3 hours ..... :no

I fly a lot from Canada to and around Asia ad never have had to wait on a plane for more than 20 or 30 minutes, even in busy airports like Hong Kong. We have waited in the terminal for hours though. I wonder if the US has different policies?