Panic - Split from overweight thread

[Firedive]

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This thread is a split from over weighting death in the forum Accidents and Incidents.

Some of the comments and replies may refer to the original thread.
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Thank you for your understanding and help.​

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For the record - panic is not at all limited to inexperienced or infrequent divers. To quote Dr. William Morgan, whose study of panic in diving was the result of a Sea Grant, "Scuba divers with many years of experience sometimes experience panic for no apparent reason."

 

[Missdirected]

Speculation IMO is sometimes a good thing - it causes one to run through different scenarios in their head - perhaps helping them one day when they need it.

Also panic is not simple. Panic can be deadly and it happens to experienced divers as well as new divers. Many things play a role in panic - not just stuff that happens in the water. One can be mentally stressed with home issues and not in the right frame of mind - what once was a simple problem to a diver may turn into something more. You never know.

I spent some time the night of the death with the friend of this woman, and her two children. The friend, who is a member of this board and a doctor, had planned to attend the party Sunday night, all of them were looking forward to it. When I told him my name he knew me immediately. He knows a great many of you actually.

He said to me that night that when he had his wits about he would come here and post on the happenings of that day. I was actually shocked when he said that. However, he stated he knows that we here like to work through these things in our minds.

Some facts;
They are not newbie divers
They are quite used to diving low viz - it is the norm where they come from
They, the three of them, went through what happened
He is a doctor
There was another doc who happened to be on the boat that day as well
DAN O2 kit that was on board was not operable. Not that it would have helped but still...
She was using a steel tank for the first time that was given to her by the shop
The dive was so shallow that it didn't not register on their computers
She was over-weighted as she told her friend while they were still on the tag line
She panicked and could not get herself under control
As the friend said to me - he had to push her away at one point for his own safety

My reminder: PANIC CAN BE DEADLY!

 

[Walter]

Pete, yes anyone can panic, but panic can be all but eliminated with proper training. While well trained divers do panic, it is extremely rare. Panic in the general diving population is not all that rare. It is very easy to stop the CO2 build up before it become a problem, but you have to understand the process and what to do. Sorry, but telling divers, "Stop, breathe, think, act," just doesn't cut it. Was this the issue in this particular case? I don't know, nor have I ever indicated I did. It is usually the issue when divers panic.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, yes anyone can panic, but panic can be all but eliminated with proper training.

One has a hard time training the psyche. I don't know that I know of ANY diver who has not been given to at least SOME panic in their diving. The control of the panic, while we would love to make it a text book exercise, is not always clear. Like narcosis, decisions made while under a panic may, or may not conform to reality. What instructor has not had the pleasure of signaling "OK" to a narced student, only to have them nod their head in agreement. Usually, at the end of this dive the student will SWEAR that they gave the signal back. Or how about alarms from devices that have none?

A panicked diver is NOT in their right mind. Sure, the best way to handle panic is to AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE, but we are sometimes confronted with a normally well disposed diver who inadvertently finds themselves in a panic. They are incapable of saving themselves and so someone has to fin in to do it for them. My other recipe was a method to AVOID excessive panic, and I certainly stand behind that remedy. I believe I first heard it from MB.

 

[Walter]

Pete, you missed the point. Yes, once a diver is panicked, they are not thinking at all. They are not going to be able to assist in their own rescue. OTOH, it is very easy to avoid panic in the first place.

 

[The Chairman]

OTOH, it is very easy to avoid panic in the first place.

Walter, I didn't miss the point. I just disagree with this statement. The only way to avoid all panic is to avoid all risk.

By it's very definition, panic is unreasonable. It's onset is equally as unreasonable. Once in a current that you possibly did not expect (elevated CO2) and being pulled into an orientation that you are not used to (disorientation), panic can surely set in. Panic does not respect training out the wazoo: even very trained and very experienced divers can and do panic and quite often this results in injury and death.

 

[northen diver]

Panic can be manged with drills and training at times. The key is to train and drill on those specifics in as real life as possiable and as often as possiable. There are a lot of specifics in diving. It isnt really very easy to avoid panic. Just watch someone drowning (struggling to stay afloat) on the surface and your BP, HR and respiration increases quickly (fear). Somewhere at this point determines if you panic or react into a rescue ( the flight or fight impulse). Some people has WITH training will panic while non trained bystanders jump into the water and perform a rescue attempt. Panic is not isolated to the non trained or non skilled. It does help, but it isnt always easy and it is never a given that you'll do what you were trained to do in a stessful situation.

What really caused this poor ladies demise. Was it being overwieghted, being pushed overboard, her not being comfortable in her enviroment or she just panic from a chain of events.

btw- definition of panic
Panic

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Panic is the primal urge to run and hide in the face of imminent danger. It is a sudden fear which dominates or replaces thinking and often affects groups of people or animals. Panics typically occur in disaster situations, or violent situations (such as robbery, home invasion, a shooting rampage, etc.) which may endanger the overall health of the affected group. The word panic derives from the name of the Greek god Pan, who is said to have the ability to cause fear of lonely or open places.
Prehistoric man used mass panic as a technique when hunting animals, especially ruminants. Herds reacting to unusually strong sounds or unfamiliar visual effects were directed towards cliffs, where they eventually jumped to their deaths when cornered.[citation needed]
Humans are also vulnerable to panic and it is often considered infectious, in the sense one person's panic may easily spread to other people nearby and soon the entire group acts irrationally, but people also have the ability to prevent and/or control their own and other's panic by disciplined thinking or training (such as disaster drills).

 

[Walter]

The onset of panic is very well understood and easily avoided.

 

[Cacia]

Walter, I didn't miss the point. I just disagree with this statement. The only way to avoid all panic is to avoid all risk.

By it's very definition, panic is unreasonable. It's onset is equally as unreasonable. Once in a current that you possibly did not expect (elevated CO2) and being pulled into an orientation that you are not used to (disorientation), panic can surely set in. Panic does not respect training out the wazoo: even very trained and very experienced divers can and do panic and quite often this results in injury and death.

Oh yes, I agree, Co2 hit like being on a bad trip.

Not that I would know, just sayin....

I dived a steel once or twice and I felt like an anchor. I like being as light as possible.

Walter, those guys deep inside the wreck that died...well, when you know your number is up in 2.5 minutes....what would predict how you would react? Nobody trains how to die, I advanced that idea to some DIR divers, although I don't think they got what I was asking. The insistance that you can drill for everything is lost on me.

Now, Hospice people/ yogis do exactly that, but I don't see any methodogy out there being practiced by divers who have trained to die "with dignity" of no panic.

should keep an eye out for others ( often the less experienced ), who may not realize they are in a precarious position.

Absolutely, great point.

I get called antic diver and all sorts of strokish words, but I am really very conscious most of the time.....it is the mother mentalty, seeing where others can get screwed by the "stupid little stuff".

 

[Rick Murchison]

The onset of panic is very well understood and easily avoided.

Now that (easily avoided) is unmitigated BS. There are ways to induce panic in anyone, I guarantee. Usually takes less than a minute.
Rick