It would seem to me that, as we gain experience and go through some minor glitches on dives, we should increase our capacity to tolerate issues underwater. I'm wondering what could cause an experienced (say, more than 200 lifetime dives) diver to become distressed enough to lose rational thought. Has anyone here (who meets those criteria) been through a panic event? What caused it, and what did you do?
Question Panic in the experienced diver?
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descent
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What in the holy hyperventilating hysterical hell were two uncertified divers doing in the middle of nowhere at 100 fsw?
:dropmouth:
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We were recently certified through SSI over a 10 week period, but by the time we were on this trip the cards hadn't come in the mail yet. Its not like we jumped in the water without any training whatsoever. I mean, we were stupid, but not that stupid. We were out in the middle of nowhere because we didn't hold the line, so with a distraction or two and a strong current on the descent we were lost before we even got down to 40ft, we just didn't realize it yet, a mistake I wont make again that is for damned sure.
descent
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FiddlerOnTheRoof
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On my last dive to the Doria (2002) I got badly tangled on some wire cable of some sort... I don't talk much about it as it was not a good experience and I much rather forget it. The only reason I was able to untangle myself was due to the help of my dive buddy who quickly came to my aide when he noticed I had removed more then half of my gear trying to get to it. Luckily for me he had a nice diving hammer that we used along with my knife to cut me free. It was not a pleasant situation and I was imagining my death already. Either from drowning or a bad case of the bends.
My diving time went from 20 minutes bottom time to 25 at 245ft. The extra 5 minutes forced me from my planned 59 minutes deco time to 78 minutes. I have never gone back since!
I did not panic, but was very, very close to it. My breathing rate did go up... Had I panicked I would have died!
My diving time went from 20 minutes bottom time to 25 at 245ft. The extra 5 minutes forced me from my planned 59 minutes deco time to 78 minutes. I have never gone back since!
I did not panic, but was very, very close to it. My breathing rate did go up... Had I panicked I would have died!
dumpsterDiver
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On our charter boat (where I was one of the DMs) the staff videographer (a friend) was overdue on a 60 ft dive. Seas were calm and warm , current mild to moderate and the seas were flat and the dive was easy at 50-60 depth and 50 ft visibility with no opportunity to get deep or lost etc.
We did our normal 45-50 min. run dive and then he didnt show up. We rounded up several tanks which still had 12 or 1300 psi in them and organized a few DMs, Instructor etc, to perform a search from the last point the crew member was seen.
We enter the water, spread out and begin a drift dive at a depth 30 feet off the bottom, with everyone supposed to stay in a line and in visual contact with their adjacent divers.
The whole time I am trying to think of how bad I am going to cuss out our friend for scaring us like this, but deep down, I know I am looking for a body.
We swim for 20 minutes over all the expected reef and then we reach the end of the reef system and begin to move over the sand. The group has splintered and failed to stay in visual contact with me, the leader, who is pulling a float.
My mind and emotions were pretty much a mess, but I still felt OK and was secretly harboring some degree of irrational hope. But then something just clicked in my head, as we left the reef, I was hit with a completely unexpected and overwhelming sense of grief. I remember thinking: why should sand make you so sad?
On the boat, I had already briefed the divers and told them I was not doing mouth to mouth on a dead guy- and the others thought it was terribly tacky to say this in the presence of the 20 plus recreational customers we had aboard. But I already knew that too much time had passed and our buddy just had to be dead (even though this was a baby dive and he was an extremely competent diver).
A swam along over the sand for 45 seconds, and I was completely perplexed by the intensity of this huge wave of sudden grief and sadness. I still had one diver with me who had followed protocol and had stayed 40-50 feet from me (the other 3-4 people were gone).
Then off in the distance, directly ahead of us, I see a dark spot on the white sand. I am just amazed that somehow this whole scenario seems to somehow be expected or familiar. It was as if I had sensed that this was going to occur when we left the reef and got onto the sand.
Things are moving in slow motion for me now, but somehow I completely EXPECTED to find his body on the sand ahead of us. We more or less sprint to our friend and my buddy begins to panic.
He is screaming and waiving and making gestures. For whatever reason, the sadness that I had been feeling (since just before we found him) is no stronger now. I can see blood oozing from a large head wound which I immediately recognize as being caused by a boat propeller.
I kind of grab my buddy for a moment, hold his arms down to the sides in an attempt to calm him down and I just signal for him to STOP, with the open palm hand sign. Then, I begin to carefully review the scene and prepare for the recovery. My buddy seems to be quickly calmed by my exaggerated slowness and methodical actions.
The sadness is somehow keeping me very calm and subdued. I note the mask is gone, that he is lying on his back with his eyes open and that some sand grains are laying on his eye balls and sand is also suspended on his eye lashes (which seemed to bother me more than it should). I check his pressure gage; show it to the buddy and try to remember that is was like 450 lbs or something (so we know he did not run out of air).
I breathe from his regulator and it works perfectly. I remove a dive light he had clipped to his BC and clip it to my harness because I figure it will be easier to get him on board with less danglies. I unclip his huge UW video camera from his body and hand it to the buddy. I roll him over and remove his weight belt; his belt is turned 180 degrees with the buckle under the tank. I remember thinking that this was his habit and I always thought it was a stupid way to dive and I dont want the customers seeing his bad habits, so I undo the belt and leave it on the sand even though it was only like 4-6 lbs.
I grab the back of the torn BC from behind his neck and begin to kick up. At one point I look down at him and our ascent rate is causing the hair to be parted on top of his skull and I can see far down into his brain. That image, just about caused me to panic (and I got a few dry heaves) but I just made a mental note to not look down into his head anymore.
We got him on the boat, covered his face and most of his body with a towel and used buckets to wash the blood from the deck as the jam packed dive boat passengers looked on in horror. I continue to feign calmness in front of them and I removed his fins, because they were sticking straight up and it just didnt look right. Soon, my wife (one of the searchers), ascends the dive ladder and begins to cry inconsolably when she sees the covered body.
Then, I have to go after the other divers. All had ascended, except for one (very stupid) instructor. We locate his bubbles from the boat and I swim down and frantically signal for him to ascend. Making signals of slashes across the throat and signaling someone sleeping, but he is such an ahole he ignores me and keeps swimming along, alone, with no float or marker.
I get on the boat, tell the captain (who is incredulous). I remember thinking maybe he understands my signals and just wants to delay the ugly scene he knows awaits him on the boat. The instructor finally ascends a few minutes later. (He later died in a tragic diving accident - along with his student and another diver).
Ive panicked underwater several times, mostly when confronted with super aggressive sharks, but somehow I was able to keep it together for this dive.
There's no way that was easy to write. Thank you.
Post #22 by dumpsterDiver: Just like to thank you for the frank and fearless description of your panic event.
As a general comment to this thread, I am mindful of a poster I saw at an airbase:
"The truly excellent pilot uses his excellent judgement to avoid situations requiring his excellent skill."
As a general comment to this thread, I am mindful of a poster I saw at an airbase:
"The truly excellent pilot uses his excellent judgement to avoid situations requiring his excellent skill."
Having just gone thru what could easily be called a panic issue, would like to point out a few things I have learned the hard way. I've alway thought that panic was, well panic..something you could, if you remained calm control...there is some that no person, no training can control and it has changed my view of this issue.
My case. 5 days before the event, I had a tooth crush at depth...and coming up I actually had the tooth blown out. Lots of blood and entirely missing tooth (including the root). Only a tiny bit was stuck and the edges of it were razor sharp. I don't know where all of it went, but boy did it bleed.
The day before the event, I inhaled a tiny bit of salt water, and coughed very hard... and oddly I did something to my trachea, as there was a small amount of normal blood coming out (I now know I had a small cut, right below the larynx) Must have inhaled a tiny piece of tooth and coughed it up.
Day of the dive..will not go into all of the details..but around 35 minutes into the dive, at around 50 ft, while trying to hold myself with one hand (camera in other hand), the huge surge I was in turned me sideways, and when I exhaled, the current kept the valve open and flooded the reg. The result as a bit of inhaled water (something I've had happen twice before), but this time was different..suddenly I could not get air..what I now know was a trachea spasm, something I had never heard of and did not know existed. The effect is that you cannot get air in or out of your lungs... scary feeling and it very soon resulted in an amazing desire to bolt to the surface.
I knew that would be a serious mistake, and as I pulled and pushed to get air into my lungs, I did everything I could to ascend slower than normal. If I stopped moving, the feeling would grow exponentially and I was trapped between this unrelenting drive to bolt and the knowledge doing so would kill me.
It would have been nice to have relaxed, so I did not need more O2, but that was impossible for me to do, so I fooled my body by going negative and then swimming (so I was moving) as slow as I could.. so the ascent was slow..to do sort of a safety stop, I swam sideways.
The feeling of knowing you are going to die is absolutely terrible...and it did not go away when I got to the surface. There I was coughing up small amounts of straight blood and pink frothy blood (not a good sign)...I could move air in and out, but was still feeling like I was not getting air (I was white when I got to the boat). Small amount of O2 and I felt much better, and the pink blood turned to light brown blood, while I continued to cough up small amounts of standard blood for the next 3 days.
So here is what I know:
1. I had a trachea spasm, from saltwater hitting the cut in it. More common is the Larynx spasm, or what used to be called dry drowning, but the effect is the same. That actually cleared up in around 3 minutes, but while pushing air into and sucking air out (the latter actually) a caused an edema.. and that resulted in the pink blood and the lungs not working.
2. This is not from lack of O2, but rather the build up of CO2. I've been able to talk to the two doctors that worked on this issue while in the Navy, years ago. It effects everyone and one doctor (who actually went thru it) told me that it was the worse feeling he had every been thru. From that work, our CIA came up with a way to make this happen, and today, we know it as waterboarding. As has been pointed out to me, no human can repeatedly go thru this would telling everything they know, it is, in fact, the most effect torture known (why we only use it).
3. If you have any heart issue, you will die from this (as several waterboarded people also have)...bolt to the surface and you will most likely die from this.
4. The standard form happens hundred of times a year, and because it leaves no trace, and the person is normally not alive, there is no way to know it happened.
5. This is not a strange, rare condition. When I asked if I should worry about it happening again, I was told, it can happen to anyone. Just try to avoid inhaling salt water, and watch out having any damage if you do.
Today, thousands have been water boarded, and not one single person has not gone thru this, it is, absolutely going to happen. If anyone would like to prove this, I now know how it is done.
You cannot prevent it, all you can do is deal with it as best you can. I'm lucking, I don't happen to have an heart issue (genetic, not skill), but I never, ever want to go thru this again.
Diving presents a special situation here... at depth, using Nitrox, means you have a lot of O2 in your blood, and that means you can make far more CO2 than someone on the surface can, and that means the drive can be magnitudes higher..not good for self control. figure the toughest Navy seal train time 3 or 4.
Me, I now understand that CO2 build up is not something anyone can control, and it is a killer in the worst possible sense.
My case. 5 days before the event, I had a tooth crush at depth...and coming up I actually had the tooth blown out. Lots of blood and entirely missing tooth (including the root). Only a tiny bit was stuck and the edges of it were razor sharp. I don't know where all of it went, but boy did it bleed.
The day before the event, I inhaled a tiny bit of salt water, and coughed very hard... and oddly I did something to my trachea, as there was a small amount of normal blood coming out (I now know I had a small cut, right below the larynx) Must have inhaled a tiny piece of tooth and coughed it up.
Day of the dive..will not go into all of the details..but around 35 minutes into the dive, at around 50 ft, while trying to hold myself with one hand (camera in other hand), the huge surge I was in turned me sideways, and when I exhaled, the current kept the valve open and flooded the reg. The result as a bit of inhaled water (something I've had happen twice before), but this time was different..suddenly I could not get air..what I now know was a trachea spasm, something I had never heard of and did not know existed. The effect is that you cannot get air in or out of your lungs... scary feeling and it very soon resulted in an amazing desire to bolt to the surface.
I knew that would be a serious mistake, and as I pulled and pushed to get air into my lungs, I did everything I could to ascend slower than normal. If I stopped moving, the feeling would grow exponentially and I was trapped between this unrelenting drive to bolt and the knowledge doing so would kill me.
It would have been nice to have relaxed, so I did not need more O2, but that was impossible for me to do, so I fooled my body by going negative and then swimming (so I was moving) as slow as I could.. so the ascent was slow..to do sort of a safety stop, I swam sideways.
The feeling of knowing you are going to die is absolutely terrible...and it did not go away when I got to the surface. There I was coughing up small amounts of straight blood and pink frothy blood (not a good sign)...I could move air in and out, but was still feeling like I was not getting air (I was white when I got to the boat). Small amount of O2 and I felt much better, and the pink blood turned to light brown blood, while I continued to cough up small amounts of standard blood for the next 3 days.
So here is what I know:
1. I had a trachea spasm, from saltwater hitting the cut in it. More common is the Larynx spasm, or what used to be called dry drowning, but the effect is the same. That actually cleared up in around 3 minutes, but while pushing air into and sucking air out (the latter actually) a caused an edema.. and that resulted in the pink blood and the lungs not working.
2. This is not from lack of O2, but rather the build up of CO2. I've been able to talk to the two doctors that worked on this issue while in the Navy, years ago. It effects everyone and one doctor (who actually went thru it) told me that it was the worse feeling he had every been thru. From that work, our CIA came up with a way to make this happen, and today, we know it as waterboarding. As has been pointed out to me, no human can repeatedly go thru this would telling everything they know, it is, in fact, the most effect torture known (why we only use it).
3. If you have any heart issue, you will die from this (as several waterboarded people also have)...bolt to the surface and you will most likely die from this.
4. The standard form happens hundred of times a year, and because it leaves no trace, and the person is normally not alive, there is no way to know it happened.
5. This is not a strange, rare condition. When I asked if I should worry about it happening again, I was told, it can happen to anyone. Just try to avoid inhaling salt water, and watch out having any damage if you do.
Today, thousands have been water boarded, and not one single person has not gone thru this, it is, absolutely going to happen. If anyone would like to prove this, I now know how it is done.
You cannot prevent it, all you can do is deal with it as best you can. I'm lucking, I don't happen to have an heart issue (genetic, not skill), but I never, ever want to go thru this again.
Diving presents a special situation here... at depth, using Nitrox, means you have a lot of O2 in your blood, and that means you can make far more CO2 than someone on the surface can, and that means the drive can be magnitudes higher..not good for self control. figure the toughest Navy seal train time 3 or 4.
Me, I now understand that CO2 build up is not something anyone can control, and it is a killer in the worst possible sense.
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I've told this story before, I apologize it you've heard it.
About 10 years ago I was diving the Spiegel Grove, solo. I penetrated the main deck from the bow. Partway back, I decided to go down just two decks without laying a line. I swam around a little and then ascended one deck. Then, for the life of me, I could not locate the hatch back to the main deck. It appeared pitch black and I briefly thought how embarrassing it would be to drown just one floor below the main deck. Panic was starting to build when I decided to turn off my light. There was a very faint blue light down the hall that proved to be a stairway back to the main deck.
I have not done anything far so stupid since and am here to embarrassingly tell you all about it.
Good diving, Craig
About 10 years ago I was diving the Spiegel Grove, solo. I penetrated the main deck from the bow. Partway back, I decided to go down just two decks without laying a line. I swam around a little and then ascended one deck. Then, for the life of me, I could not locate the hatch back to the main deck. It appeared pitch black and I briefly thought how embarrassing it would be to drown just one floor below the main deck. Panic was starting to build when I decided to turn off my light. There was a very faint blue light down the hall that proved to be a stairway back to the main deck.
I have not done anything far so stupid since and am here to embarrassingly tell you all about it.
Good diving, Craig
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