It would seem to me that, as we gain experience and go through some minor glitches on dives, we should increase our capacity to tolerate issues underwater. I'm wondering what could cause an experienced (say, more than 200 lifetime dives) diver to become distressed enough to lose rational thought. Has anyone here (who meets those criteria) been through a panic event? What caused it, and what did you do?
Question Panic in the experienced diver?
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Texasguy
Contributor
I felt panic only 2 times but both were ok handled.
First was during Cozumel trip, then my first time in the ocean dive vacation. DM took us through a very narrow passage, maybe 3-4 feet tall. Divers lined up behind DM. Because he was a d*ckhead, he found in that passage a lionfish and decided to spear it. Apparently, it was not as easy and he totally silted out the whole passage with sand and no one moves forward or backward, everyone awaits for DM to clear the passage. So, I stayed there with little visibility and a person blocking me from the front and from the rear. Nowhere to go even if I panicked. So, instead I started cursing at the f-ker under the water to release the tension. Probably most uncomfortable 3 mins of my life. I felt near panic because it was not evident what is going up with DM, why we are not moving in any direction for so long, and because the ceiling was so low, there was no chance to move over another diver, turn or move backwards because there was someone else, I kind of felt trapped.
The other time was in the local lake, rather bad viz, maybe 6-10 feet, but only 25' deep tops. So I see underwater in the sunken boat a full sized army boot. I am, like la-la-la, let me take it and show it to my diving buddies who are behind me. So I take a boot and pull up from the muddy bottom. To my surprise it is connected to a leg, a heavy human leg that is connected to a freaking body. I am F-K!!!!! So, I turned to my buddies and signaled them unplanned surface time. After on the surface of the lake I have communicated that there is a body below of who doesn't seem to be a diver, and, I am not crazy. We dove in and found the spot. Turns out it was a very well made rubber manikin dressed fully in human clothing. Later we found out that some local club uses it for recovery classes. But, it is so funny when you come across one. And I laugh and laugh... not really.
Solo night diving in the ocean gives me major creeps. But I still do it on liveaboards as an exercise to fight panic.
First was during Cozumel trip, then my first time in the ocean dive vacation. DM took us through a very narrow passage, maybe 3-4 feet tall. Divers lined up behind DM. Because he was a d*ckhead, he found in that passage a lionfish and decided to spear it. Apparently, it was not as easy and he totally silted out the whole passage with sand and no one moves forward or backward, everyone awaits for DM to clear the passage. So, I stayed there with little visibility and a person blocking me from the front and from the rear. Nowhere to go even if I panicked. So, instead I started cursing at the f-ker under the water to release the tension. Probably most uncomfortable 3 mins of my life. I felt near panic because it was not evident what is going up with DM, why we are not moving in any direction for so long, and because the ceiling was so low, there was no chance to move over another diver, turn or move backwards because there was someone else, I kind of felt trapped.
The other time was in the local lake, rather bad viz, maybe 6-10 feet, but only 25' deep tops. So I see underwater in the sunken boat a full sized army boot. I am, like la-la-la, let me take it and show it to my diving buddies who are behind me. So I take a boot and pull up from the muddy bottom. To my surprise it is connected to a leg, a heavy human leg that is connected to a freaking body. I am F-K!!!!! So, I turned to my buddies and signaled them unplanned surface time. After on the surface of the lake I have communicated that there is a body below of who doesn't seem to be a diver, and, I am not crazy. We dove in and found the spot. Turns out it was a very well made rubber manikin dressed fully in human clothing. Later we found out that some local club uses it for recovery classes. But, it is so funny when you come across one. And I laugh and laugh... not really.
Solo night diving in the ocean gives me major creeps. But I still do it on liveaboards as an exercise to fight panic.
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Ulfhedinn
-Skill Collector-
I have felt panic 2 times while diving.
Once when I lost my wife in a freak "white water" surge that pulled apart in a crevice. My fear was for her and not for me. Reverse fear. This was her 5th dive... She was fine and did the right thing. Surfaced and waited for me. I went looking for her in the crevice. Surfaced after 5 mins to find here floating wondering why I didn't do the "surface after losing your buddy thing".
2nd time was a night dive. Masked kept flooding and fogging. Switched out backup mask. Same issue. Then the primary light failed in the middle of this. Dive buddy disappears. Backup light works like a champ though
Im thinking ok how long have I been down. How long is my deco... heavy breathing ensues. Thought to myself "hey Im panicking and started laughing" <was able to mentally pull out of the issue and get my bearings> strangely enoughe another diver heard the laughing and came to see what was up. Signed under water what was up and he became my new dive buddy for the night. Assisted with deco and reevaluated my former dive buddy. If you know what I mean.
My sig says it all.
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear - Mark Twain
Once when I lost my wife in a freak "white water" surge that pulled apart in a crevice. My fear was for her and not for me. Reverse fear. This was her 5th dive... She was fine and did the right thing. Surfaced and waited for me. I went looking for her in the crevice. Surfaced after 5 mins to find here floating wondering why I didn't do the "surface after losing your buddy thing".
2nd time was a night dive. Masked kept flooding and fogging. Switched out backup mask. Same issue. Then the primary light failed in the middle of this. Dive buddy disappears. Backup light works like a champ though
Im thinking ok how long have I been down. How long is my deco... heavy breathing ensues. Thought to myself "hey Im panicking and started laughing" <was able to mentally pull out of the issue and get my bearings> strangely enoughe another diver heard the laughing and came to see what was up. Signed under water what was up and he became my new dive buddy for the night. Assisted with deco and reevaluated my former dive buddy. If you know what I mean.My sig says it all.
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear - Mark Twain
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descent
Contributor
Heard of two. Later, I saw one up close. Three events in all, from two perpetrators, across 150 - 200 people, over six years. It's uncommon.
The first guy was supposedly reduced to sobbing, wailing terror during a surf exit after a long night swim. Everywhere I went for the next four years, people I had never met asked me if I knew this guy. Nobody was hurt, aside from the emotional pain, or placed in any danger, aside from the small risk of drowning for both swimmers as one struggled and the other struggled to save him.
He wore a scarlet letter after that. He had many qualifications, but in later years, he only drove vehicles, carried gear or repaired it for us.
The second guy supposedly started bawling and refused to exit the aircraft during some mountain warfare training, on a jump into a narrow valley between high cliffs. It was blazing summer, windy, and very bright. The dirt strip on the valley floor was at around 8,000 feet. I'm not a connoisseur of cargo aircraft, but I think the Caribou on its best day is underpowered and far from graceful. In bouncy air, when the plane is yawing and pitching, the movement of the tail is so exaggerated that it becomes almost impossible to approach the ramp standing up.
I was on a later flight, and I remember thinking, "Damn. This is almost unsafe". Given the challenging conditions, some concern was warranted. Maybe even mild alarm.
But changing your mind on the ramp and trying to retreat back into the aircraft is not cool. Blocking the other jumpers is really not cool. Fortunately no one was hurt during his "frenzied avoidance of the sky".
About three months later, I watched the same guy lose it at the worst possible time, putting several people in serious danger.
It was foggy, dark, and the water temp was in the high forties (about 8C). People beyond arm's length were silhouettes. No one had any fins on. The deck was wet. We had lots of heavy gear to transport. There were no safety personnel. The rest of the team (three of us) were carrying a six-man Avon with a 60 horse outboard and several hours of fuel over to the edge of the boat. He was not helping much, but he was complaining enough for everyone.
He was not comfortable at sea. He was fine in the pool, good in the harbor and OK at the breakwater. Not so happy on the open ocean.
I don't know if the tiny deck area was too crowded for him, or if he was getting claustrophobic from the murk. It was pretty gloomy. I found it oppressive. But as we got close to the edge, he just snapped. He started screaming and yelling and pounding his fists on the gunwale of the Avon. We dropped it. It slid down the wet deck, knocking two of my friends overboard before slipping into the ocean.
The guy at the bow of the inflatable never let go of his handle as he was pulled in. He was able to throw a heel up onto an oarlock and pull himself up.
The fellow on the port side was knocked ass over teakettle. He was a headquarters guy, a little older/heavier, and he had never been a really strong swimmer. When his head and shoulders broke the surface again, I saw he was drifting away, and almost out of sight. He wasn't swimming for the Avon. In the dark, it was practically invisible. He probably didn't know which way to go.
The one sane guy remaining on deck dove in, swam over and grabbed the older guy by the collar of his wetsuit, swam back to the Avon towing hard, grabbed the transom and somehow pulled him out of the water and physically threw him up into the inflatable.
The people who jumped (or were pushed) into the ocean were in about as much danger as you would be within sixty feet of a functioning dam intake.
egovenatus
Contributor
Akimbo, yes I have heard and seen SOF candidates and "operators" and support guys panic a number of times. I agree that the A&S guys do a fairly good job of selecting people and they know what to look for, but most people do have some sort of limit. Training, indoc, and repeated exposure to stressful situations helps reduce the likelyhood of panic, but does not generally eliminate it. As for PTSD...I haven't seen any modern cases of PTSD causing people to go catatonic....even in combat.
oldschoolto
Contributor
So maybe 1% of people that make it through the selection process break... 2%... Think of the diver in the north sea that sat there waiting to get rescued when the ship was pulled off station... The apollo 13 crew... Everyday " Operators " work in places and doing things that would panic most people..
Interviewing " MOST " people after a high stress event... They say... I have no idea what happened.. It was a blur.... It happened so fast , I didn't have time to do anything.. And any " FACTS " they think they know are in fact wrong...
Jim....
Interviewing " MOST " people after a high stress event... They say... I have no idea what happened.. It was a blur.... It happened so fast , I didn't have time to do anything.. And any " FACTS " they think they know are in fact wrong...
Jim....
egovenatus
Contributor
Simply replying to Akimbo earlier.
On a note, the reason most people say "it was all a blur" is because they are not regularly conducting "stress inoculation drills". That said, even in professionals who do conduct these types of drills may say "it's all a blur" afterwards if they are not regularly in the type of situation they are training for. For example, I don't remember clear facts of the first rescue I performed, forgot basic skills at the first accident I helped at, fumbled a reload in my first combat action and afterwards didn't have good recollection of the events at the time. It's all different now, I am used to the psychological and psychological stress responses and have methods to cope.
It's the same in the general population too, also some people naturally cope better than others. But for most people it comes down to the skills you have, the training and muscle memory you have obtained, and the number of times you have been in that type of situation or one that evokes the same psychological and psychological stress responses.
On a note, the reason most people say "it was all a blur" is because they are not regularly conducting "stress inoculation drills". That said, even in professionals who do conduct these types of drills may say "it's all a blur" afterwards if they are not regularly in the type of situation they are training for. For example, I don't remember clear facts of the first rescue I performed, forgot basic skills at the first accident I helped at, fumbled a reload in my first combat action and afterwards didn't have good recollection of the events at the time. It's all different now, I am used to the psychological and psychological stress responses and have methods to cope.
It's the same in the general population too, also some people naturally cope better than others. But for most people it comes down to the skills you have, the training and muscle memory you have obtained, and the number of times you have been in that type of situation or one that evokes the same psychological and psychological stress responses.
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That sounds like a good reason to jump out of a [-]perfectly good[/-] airplane… but I suppose what you were jumping into could have been even worse.
Thanks for the replies, egovenatus also. I have heard of breakdowns in initial training but this is the first I have learned of any that were operational.
descent
Contributor
For those interested, this thread describes it. Amazing story and has a happy ending.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...20-umbilical-severed-80-meters-north-sea.html
More info here if you get lost in some of the jargon.
What is Saturation Diving
oldschoolto
Contributor
OK....Here is keep your cool....
I was working on a bin piler at a potato house, It's a conveyer belt that is used to pile the taters in a truck or in the storage house... It has a telescoping boom... I was cleaning a idler roller that was caked with mud... Standing on a ladder with a screw driver scraping the mud off and then having the belt started then stopped as I cleaned it... I told one of the 3 guys there to start the belt... That's when the belt grabbed my shirt cuff and pulled my arm in to the roller... The second it grabbed me I yelled to turn it off ... By the time " Matt had killed the power the belt had pulled my arm into the roller and crushed the hand and wrist and when it got to the elbow it snapped the humerus in about the middle and drove the lower end of the bone through the center of the bicep and then jamming the belt, This caused the boom to extend and crush the shoulder between 2 up right steel bars... This brought the bin piler to a stop...
Now was when the fun started... So I'm standing on a ladder with my arm rapped in the conveyor belt and my bone sticking out of my shirt... The 3 guys. ( Matt, Chris and Mike ) start losing it... I very calmly said.... " Guys, It's my arm in here... Not yours... Do what I say and it'll be fine "
1: Mike, You need to go up the road to the Bressaet house and call 911 and get a ambulance for me... Go...
2: Chris, I need you to find a bar so I'll be able to get my arm out from in between the belt and roller.... Go...
3: Matt, I need you to get a knife and find the lacing and cut the belt straight across so we can put it back together afterwards ... Go...
So they all do what I tell them... Chris brings me a steel bar about 3' long and Matt gets the belt cut... Now I tell Matt, You will need to start the hydraulics so you can retract the boom so I can untrap the shoulder.... He comes over with the control box and asked if this was the right button... I told him yes... And he retracted the boom a foot and then stopped.. Then asked chris for the bar and worked the belt slack so I could fish my arm out... Got it out and walked outside and had Matt cut the shirt off so I could see the damage... The bone was sticking out about a inch or so and I had little bleeding... So I was good to go as far as not needing to stop bleeding...
As I waited for the ambulance I asked Mike to light me a cigarette... Chris looked at me and asked... Doesn't it hurt... I said YEAH, But not much I can do about it right now... He stated... " I'd be laying on the ground, CRYING LIKE A BABY "
Ambulance showed up about 10 minutes later and I had them call the dispatchers to find out what hospital had a orthopedic surgeon on call being it was a sunday and we live in a small town and would need to travel 50+ miles south or 50+ miles north... And I didn't want to go south and then have to be sent back up north to get it fixed...
After this was done, I sat down on the stretcher and said... OK, Done being a tough guy... SHOOT ME UP WITH MORPHINE....
Jim...
I was working on a bin piler at a potato house, It's a conveyer belt that is used to pile the taters in a truck or in the storage house... It has a telescoping boom... I was cleaning a idler roller that was caked with mud... Standing on a ladder with a screw driver scraping the mud off and then having the belt started then stopped as I cleaned it... I told one of the 3 guys there to start the belt... That's when the belt grabbed my shirt cuff and pulled my arm in to the roller... The second it grabbed me I yelled to turn it off ... By the time " Matt had killed the power the belt had pulled my arm into the roller and crushed the hand and wrist and when it got to the elbow it snapped the humerus in about the middle and drove the lower end of the bone through the center of the bicep and then jamming the belt, This caused the boom to extend and crush the shoulder between 2 up right steel bars... This brought the bin piler to a stop...
Now was when the fun started... So I'm standing on a ladder with my arm rapped in the conveyor belt and my bone sticking out of my shirt... The 3 guys. ( Matt, Chris and Mike ) start losing it... I very calmly said.... " Guys, It's my arm in here... Not yours... Do what I say and it'll be fine "
1: Mike, You need to go up the road to the Bressaet house and call 911 and get a ambulance for me... Go...
2: Chris, I need you to find a bar so I'll be able to get my arm out from in between the belt and roller.... Go...
3: Matt, I need you to get a knife and find the lacing and cut the belt straight across so we can put it back together afterwards ... Go...
So they all do what I tell them... Chris brings me a steel bar about 3' long and Matt gets the belt cut... Now I tell Matt, You will need to start the hydraulics so you can retract the boom so I can untrap the shoulder.... He comes over with the control box and asked if this was the right button... I told him yes... And he retracted the boom a foot and then stopped.. Then asked chris for the bar and worked the belt slack so I could fish my arm out... Got it out and walked outside and had Matt cut the shirt off so I could see the damage... The bone was sticking out about a inch or so and I had little bleeding... So I was good to go as far as not needing to stop bleeding...
As I waited for the ambulance I asked Mike to light me a cigarette... Chris looked at me and asked... Doesn't it hurt... I said YEAH, But not much I can do about it right now... He stated... " I'd be laying on the ground, CRYING LIKE A BABY "
Ambulance showed up about 10 minutes later and I had them call the dispatchers to find out what hospital had a orthopedic surgeon on call being it was a sunday and we live in a small town and would need to travel 50+ miles south or 50+ miles north... And I didn't want to go south and then have to be sent back up north to get it fixed...
After this was done, I sat down on the stretcher and said... OK, Done being a tough guy... SHOOT ME UP WITH MORPHINE....
Jim...
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