It would seem to me that, as we gain experience and go through some minor glitches on dives, we should increase our capacity to tolerate issues underwater. I'm wondering what could cause an experienced (say, more than 200 lifetime dives) diver to become distressed enough to lose rational thought. Has anyone here (who meets those criteria) been through a panic event? What caused it, and what did you do?
Question Panic in the experienced diver?
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Hmmmm...you had half of your gear off before your buddy noticed you had a problem??
Sounds like "Vicinity Diving" ( as in: "I'm sure my buddy is somewhere in the vicinity" ) to me.
Hey, I'm not taking a shot; from my observations, many, many dive-pairs practice vicinity diving, very, very few stay within the recommended "touch distance.". Most get away with it, some, like you, have close calls, and some don't live to tell about it.
Glad it worked out for you.
DSD
( BTW - what is a "diving hammer" & how does one cut with it? )
I hope one day there is a better understanding of what can happen.
I recently witnessed an experienced diver panic. Diver aborted dive and ascended rapidly from 15m for no clear reason. He later reported he couldn't catch his breath no matter how hard he tried to relax and breathe deeply, this was on OC 21%. I believe he created some CO2 build up, possibly from skip breathing, he is one of these people who is obsessed with improving his SAC anyway possible, including skip breathing. He often surfaces with headaches.
Years ago I also witnessed another experienced diver who had his mask strap break at around 20m, his mask completely flooded which sent him into a panic, he ended up surfacing. Later he admitted he hadn't practiced full mask clearance since he got certified, which turned out to be nearly 10 years earlier.
Years ago I also witnessed another experienced diver who had his mask strap break at around 20m, his mask completely flooded which sent him into a panic, he ended up surfacing. Later he admitted he hadn't practiced full mask clearance since he got certified, which turned out to be nearly 10 years earlier.
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Scuba mc, you got two very different events, and from the outside, they look the same.
Your second example is classic panic...the drive to remove yourself from the situation. There is an adrenaline rush to power it and at most it will last less than 2 minutes. Practice, experience and knowing what to expect and it is possible to control it completely. I never do a dive trip without taking my mask off, as I have never liked the feeling, so I control the feeling by practice.
The first one is a very different situation. CO2 build up will cause, in everyone, a panic response. It is you body telling you, that you are suffocating and will die if you continue on this path. As long as you have the higher CO2, you will be driven to bolt away. If you can reduce it, one is back in the standard panic mode. But if you cannot, this will not stop and no amount of practice will prevent this from happening.
This is made much worse by the potential for much higher CO2 levels because one is under higher pressure, so one can have a super case of flight.
If your person did it to themselves and then started breathing well, it would clear up, but one would still have the less than two minute panic. Clearly, bolting to the surface has a lot of other risks and long after the drive is gone, they may be dealing with those.
But there are lots of other reasons for CO2 build up, including CO2 in the tank (which might only show up at depth). There is edema's, Larynx spasm, equipment issues and don't forget that mild heart attack. One might start out with something not working correctly, then build up CO2... and there one goes.
It is, easily, the single biggest cause of diver deaths, not directly, but from the actions the diver takes from it. And this is not something one can practice to prevent. As a side note, after talking with the two doctors that did the research for the Navy, just doing a practice of it can cause terrible mental side effects and post traumatic issues...this is something one wants to avoid if at all possible.
All one can do is fight the drive, and just like Navy Seal training, evaluation the situation and convince yourself to do what is right and that you will only have to fight it until you get out of the situation. Some would be resolved on the surface, some will need medical attention and O2, but your life may depend on it.
Can a dive buddy help..absolutely not. First because they will not know what the right thing to do is (go to the surface as fast as you safely can, or go to the surface as slow as possible). I know in my event, had someone thought I needed to go to the surface, I would have hurt them. and with as much force as I could have. And second, this unrelenting panic will cause the person to fight harder (not good when you already have too high CO2. This is something the person has to deal with and it is terrible.
I should point out that I have, as an instructor, held people down from bolting to the surface a bunch of times...and I was lucky that all of those happened to be the standard panic. Not because I evaluated what was going on and then acted, but because I have always thought that you do that. I now know that if it is CO2 build up, you should not. Tough to do, but you will have no way to know what the right thing to do is, and you may, while trying to help, kill them.
Interesting to me is that the Dan research people know about this, but somehow it gets rather missed, and because they say just to give the person O2 and assume the worse, it is the right thing to do.
It might help to understand what to do and what is right to do, but it will not stop or change the feeling you get.
As you pointed out Nitrox is much worse, as you now have pressure and concentration.
Your second example is classic panic...the drive to remove yourself from the situation. There is an adrenaline rush to power it and at most it will last less than 2 minutes. Practice, experience and knowing what to expect and it is possible to control it completely. I never do a dive trip without taking my mask off, as I have never liked the feeling, so I control the feeling by practice.
The first one is a very different situation. CO2 build up will cause, in everyone, a panic response. It is you body telling you, that you are suffocating and will die if you continue on this path. As long as you have the higher CO2, you will be driven to bolt away. If you can reduce it, one is back in the standard panic mode. But if you cannot, this will not stop and no amount of practice will prevent this from happening.
This is made much worse by the potential for much higher CO2 levels because one is under higher pressure, so one can have a super case of flight.
If your person did it to themselves and then started breathing well, it would clear up, but one would still have the less than two minute panic. Clearly, bolting to the surface has a lot of other risks and long after the drive is gone, they may be dealing with those.
But there are lots of other reasons for CO2 build up, including CO2 in the tank (which might only show up at depth). There is edema's, Larynx spasm, equipment issues and don't forget that mild heart attack. One might start out with something not working correctly, then build up CO2... and there one goes.
It is, easily, the single biggest cause of diver deaths, not directly, but from the actions the diver takes from it. And this is not something one can practice to prevent. As a side note, after talking with the two doctors that did the research for the Navy, just doing a practice of it can cause terrible mental side effects and post traumatic issues...this is something one wants to avoid if at all possible.
All one can do is fight the drive, and just like Navy Seal training, evaluation the situation and convince yourself to do what is right and that you will only have to fight it until you get out of the situation. Some would be resolved on the surface, some will need medical attention and O2, but your life may depend on it.
Can a dive buddy help..absolutely not. First because they will not know what the right thing to do is (go to the surface as fast as you safely can, or go to the surface as slow as possible). I know in my event, had someone thought I needed to go to the surface, I would have hurt them. and with as much force as I could have. And second, this unrelenting panic will cause the person to fight harder (not good when you already have too high CO2. This is something the person has to deal with and it is terrible.
I should point out that I have, as an instructor, held people down from bolting to the surface a bunch of times...and I was lucky that all of those happened to be the standard panic. Not because I evaluated what was going on and then acted, but because I have always thought that you do that. I now know that if it is CO2 build up, you should not. Tough to do, but you will have no way to know what the right thing to do is, and you may, while trying to help, kill them.
Interesting to me is that the Dan research people know about this, but somehow it gets rather missed, and because they say just to give the person O2 and assume the worse, it is the right thing to do.
It might help to understand what to do and what is right to do, but it will not stop or change the feeling you get.
As you pointed out Nitrox is much worse, as you now have pressure and concentration.
while their skills and experience may be good, they may lack a certain water comfort when the unexpected happens. Ever try surfing? If you aren't good at holding your breath while stressed and uncomfortable...it will suck badly. When something goes wrong diving it can be very much the same, the diver needs to KNOW they have time to think and deal, if they aren't comfortable with sudden unexpected inability to breath, panic is often the result.
Basking Ridge Diver
Contributor
Can you expand on this? I am not sure what you are trying to say or convey with this statement.
I could not agree more. That is why I am a proponent of learning freediving before, or at least along with, Scuba. The problem is compounded by Scuba classes that don’t require unaided swimming tests. Being afraid a mask or fin strap breaks is not a good start in developing panic resistance.
Sorry, would be happy to expand. On the surface, we have around 21% O2, and seems we can survive (not well) down to about 6%. And we can live up to around 6% CO2 (which is actually from 12% O2 because half of the CO2 goes into solution as an acid). So, if you hold your breath on the surface, when you get down to 6 -8% O2, your CO2 is just reaching the toxic level...so it a tie between panic and passing out (how long one holds their breath has no effect here, it is just concentrations).
Lets go down to 66 ft...or 3 atm's. We now have 3 times the amount of O2 (pressure effect), but that does not change how we react to CO2. In effect, we have lots more O2 to make CO2, and over the short term, we can now make huge amounts of CO2...and the system is no longer limited by the starting amount of O2.
Then, lets add 32% Nitrox into the equation...at 66 ft, we now have (32 x 3, or 96% O2, or 4.5 times the O2.. which can make a huge amount of CO@ before it gets down to the 6% level. The effect is you will not initially pass out (like on the surface) and you will go thru a terror massively worst than any waterboarding has ever caused.
cerich, there is not getting used to this, nor stopping it. As was pointed out to me, in my case I waterboarded myself, in a form several times worse that one can do on the surface. The doctor I talked to who had gone thru it over 30 years ago, still was terrified by it. We really need to stop putting this reaction in with water or the face or claustrophobia..they have nothing to do with each other.
It should be noted that this is not just about the panic, a bunch of very real, very deadly effects are taking place... remember this is a toxic compound and just because you don't pass out, does not mean it is not effecting your brain function.
Basking Ridge Diver
Contributor
I bolded for effect - so how do we account for freedivers that breath hold well below 3ATA? Or am I missing the point?
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