PADI vs NAUI

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Although I agree that surveying students is good, one problem is that their memory of what happened and what they were taught is not flawless. When I was an assistant instructor, one of the instructors in my shop was investigated because a surveyed student had indicated he had not used an ascent line to maintain control of the student during the CESA. I was there as an assistant. It was done in a mountain lake using a platform with three ascent lines terminating on the surface with buoys. My job was to monitor the students once they reached the surface, and another assistant was on the platform monitoring the students the instructor left behind each time a student did a CESA. Every student went up the line, just as it was done on every certification by that instructor since he started instructing. It was done perfectly by the book, but that's not how the student remembered it.
 
I don't know what certification Agency you are referring to, but they're tasked with acting responsibly by law and may be included in a civil action as a result. Agencies gain feedback from Students to ascertain any breach of Agency Standards or improper Instructor behavior. "So false on so many levels." What are you going on about???
Read what I quoted. I would submit that only a small fraction of instructors' actions are monitored by any agency. I can't even begin to comprehend the manpower that would be needed to attain that kind of supervisory level. It's just not there for any agency and you know it.
 
Read what I quoted. I would submit that only a small fraction of instructors' actions are monitored by any agency. I can't even begin to comprehend the manpower that would be needed to attain that kind of supervisory level. It's just not there for any agency and you know it.

Certifying an Instructor to teach SCUBA diving carries with it an immense responsibility. The Agency must act in a manner that's reasonable (or at least, it must be perceived to be the case) and insure that their standard of care is met. They monitor Instructors to fulfill this responsibility and to maintain Agency Standards; the measure by which their insurance coverage is often contingent.

No doubt that some Agencies take this more seriously than others. CMAS (for example) places this responsibility in the hands of its national representative Agency. They must make efforts to monitor each Instructor and keep track of any complaint, standard breach, along with documentation of the action taken. It's taken very seriously. Every person becoming certified (at any level) is provided with a questionnaire. The Agency doesn't have control of how many of these they receive, but a real effort is made.

It's bad business not to have any quality assurance system in-place. In today's industry, this is something that hasn't gone without notice.
 
All agencies have some form of quality assurance in place and it's mostly passive. That is, they don't go out and watch every instructor but rather rely on reports from others. There might be a short question or questionnaire given to a student after the certification, but that's as active as it gets. To suggest that this is "monitoring" an instructor is giving the concept only lip service. Monitoring is an active process and should become interactive/invasive when a problem is discovered. Most of the agencies' Q&A programs simply react to complaints about their instructors. In other words, non professionals are the ones reporting instructors and that's often after an accident or near accident has occurred Even then, there is often a lack of resources for agencies to adequately ascertain what actually happened and these inquiries frequently turn into "he said, she said" issues with no clear remedy. To clarify further: I monitor my students during training. I evaluate how they dive and help them to change to become excellent divers. After the class, it's impossible for me to monitor them. I will still mentor them and I will read their dive reports. That's simply not monitoring them.

In your earlier statement, you suggested that NAUI monitored ALL actions by their instructors. That is just plain false and I am surprised you haven't redacted that statement. In fact, the majority of the actions that NAUI monitors, if you can call it that, are merely the ones reported by students who really don't have a clue about what is or is not appropriate. Insurance companies are more interested in actual claims than lip service to some flawed monitoring system. This is true for all agencies and not just NAUI. Unfortunately, you are more than willing to paint a single agency as being evil and the others, having the same kind of Q&A system as somehow being noble and responsible. We get that you hate PADI with a vengeance, and many of us wonder when you'll stop beating that friggin' drum so hard.

Let's face it, almost every sport has evolved to become easier and safer. Look at football for example. The helmets have evolved just as the pads, the shoes and everything else you see out on the field. Even the rules have evolved and to what end? To make the game safer. Dive training is no different. Take buddy breathing. It used to be that octos were not universal. Your buddy may or may not have one. Heck, they might not even have a pressure gauge! My first reg didn't have an octo or a pressure gauge on it. Buddy breathing was an essential part of being able to dive safely especially if you had accidentally popped your j-valve down. In reality, almost every dive ended with some sort of CESA because we routinely ran out of air. Fortunately, Scuba has evolved significantly since the 60's. The gear has really evolved and most of the agencies have followed suit, albeit less aggressively. I can't remember seeing a reg in the past ten years without an octo. Why on earth should that be mandated standards? It's not. However, some instructors see a value in buddy breathing. All my students do this horizontally in the pool and it helps them relax and helps them to control their breathing. It fits my teaching style, so I use it but it should never be mandatory. Not everyone teaches like me. Like football, we have a few people so in love with their concept of what the sport was like "back then", that they refuse to accept the inevitable progress. They use words and concepts like dummied down to describe the current situation. In reality, the real dummies are the ones who refuse to evolve with everyone else.

I'll say this again... there is a bigger difference between instructors of the same agency then there exists between agencies. That's a monitoring fail by anyone's definition. Every agency has it's good points and it's bad points. While you want to say that these are written in their standards, I contend that they are actually their instructors. I don't care what agency an instructor teaches for as long as they are fun, safe, thorough and not burned out. A good instructor will make sure that you have all you need to dive safely and have fun. A great instructor will inspire you to excellence. A mediocre instructor is only concerned with standards and could care less if you are able to dive much less have any fun while doing it.
 
I'll say this again... there is a bigger difference between instructors of the same agency then there exists between agencies. That's a monitoring fail by anyone's definition. Every agency has it's good points and it's bad points. While you want to say that these are written in their standards, I contend that they are actually their instructors. I don't care what agency an instructor teaches for as long as they are fun, safe, thorough and not burned out. A good instructor will make sure that you have all you need to dive safely and have fun. A great instructor will inspire you to excellence. A mediocre instructor is only concerned with standards and could care less if you are able to dive much less have any fun while doing it.

Gospel!
 
...In your earlier statement, you suggested that NAUI monitored ALL actions by their instructors. That is just plain false and I am surprised you haven't redacted that statement.

I stated that the Agency has a legal duty to monitor its Instructors. It does.

Definition of Monitoring: "To keep track of systematically, with a view to collecting information." monitoring - definition of monitoring by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

...In fact, the majority of the actions that NAUI monitors, if you can call it that, are merely the ones reported by students who really don't have a clue about what is or is not appropriate.

Yes, reported in questionnaires provided to the Student by NAUI. The Board of Directors reviews ethics violations directly. To quote NAUI: "NAUI is committed to providing the highest quality diver training available and use various methods to ensure NAUI standards are met whenever instruction is conducted. As part of this commitment, we actively monitor and publish recent quality assurance activities."

I can't attest to PADI's QA system today, but when I was a PADI Instructor they had the best QA in the industry, but I'm repeating myself...

Unfortunately, you are more than willing to paint a single agency as being evil and the others, having the same kind of Q&A system as somehow being noble and responsible. We get that you hate PADI with a vengeance, and many of us wonder when you'll stop beating that friggin' drum so hard.

Please quote me (in bold print) where I've said anything that's incorrect about any Agency in this thread! It seems that you're the one making unsubstantiated claims here... Hardly professional NetDoc. Back to your old ways again I see...
 
Please quote me (in bold print) where I've said anything that's incorrect about any Agency in this thread!
Here it is again and I emboldened the term all for a reason...

All Instructor activity/actions are monitored by the training agency.

So, as far as "monitoring" goes, you think passive is just fine. You're way overstating the actual amount of monitoring that occurs. Like I said: it's lip service and not much more.

Since you haven't suggested differently, I guess you agree that there is more difference between the instructors of any particular agency, then between the actual agencies. That's simply a failure for your case of all inclusive "monitoring".
 
Here it is again and I emboldened the term all for a reason...

So your remark that I was painting "a single agency as being evil" was unfounded. You expressed an opinion based on nothing, as you often do.

So, as far as "monitoring" goes, you think passive is just fine. You're way overstating the actual amount of monitoring that occurs. Like I said: it's lip service and not much more.

I'm not overstating anything. The Agency has a duty to monitor their Instructors. Which they do. If you wish to have a discussion on the merits of passive vs. active monitoring, that's a separate discussion and one that may be best suited to another thread...

Since you haven't suggested differently, I guess you agree that there is more difference between the instructors of any particular agency, then between the actual agencies. That's simply a failure for your case of all inclusive "monitoring".

There you go again; trying to put words in my mouth. I'll let my words speak for themselves if you don't mind...

As I have previously stated (in post 143), "As has been established, there are differences between the two organizations, as there are differences between Instructors (between and within certification Agencies). It's the Client that must decide what type of training they want and choose an Instructor. As always, the choice is their's... "

You should read more closely. Perhaps this might curb your penchant to criticize before understanding what was said...
 
So your remark that I was painting "a single agency as being evil" was unfounded.
Not at all. You keep bashing one agency all the time. Sometimes you do it passively and other times aggressively. It's truly a passive/aggressive thing for you. It's funny that you are denying that.

I'm not overstating anything.
Sure you have. You are just unwilling to admit you were wrong. In no way are all actions and activities monitored by any agency. You sound like an infomercial when you say things like that. It's not true. Not even a tiny fraction of those actions and activities are monitored. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true. You can accuse me of all sorts of nefarious intents, but you have yet to show your statement to be remotely accurate.

You should read more closely.
You should write more clearly and admit when you're wrong or have misstated something.

Again, there is very little difference between agencies when it comes to learning to dive. Some agencies may require more in one area while still overlooking an important skill or two in another. Some agencies market well while others not so much. Some agencies are great with the internet while one or two are hoping that this fad will soon pass. Most agencies have embraced a modular approach to certification and that more than anything pisses off a few who want an all inclusive approach. Nothing of the kind is written into any agency's standard. When it comes down to it, it's best to ask the individual instructor about the scope of their class and how they teach. If you want "old school" for whatever reason, there are a number of instructors out there who simply refuse to evolve with the rest of us and like training to be arduous if not painful. If you want a fun and relevant class then there are many instructors who have not only evolved with the industry but are innovators in their own right. They put the fun back into the fundamentals of diving. Heck, you can find and contact a whole spectrum of instructors right here on ScubaBoard from all over the world if you want to get certified. Read what they post and figure out who is the best one for you.
 
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