PADI vs NAUI
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Blackwood
Contributor
Ok, lets say we agree that the taking of a resort course is the student's fault for not browsing a dive enthusiast board before his first experience diving. Who's fault is it that the course exists? The resort offering it? The agency who developed and blessed it?
One could go in a circle and say it's student demand for short courses that lead agencies to offer them, and Thal may have a different viewpoint based on his experience with DEMA.
Many new people on here report their dive ops as teaching OW and immediately offering and encouraging a long list of followup classes. This mirrors my experience.
If before the student signed up they presented two options: (1) OW, but like many you'll eventually take AOW and Rescue and This, That and The Other Thing; (2) Scripps-model, and you're at or above the level of the broken up sequence, I wonder what would be more common.
Personally, were those options, I'd likely have done the latter.
There are people who only take BOW. Is that what the Industry really wants? On average, do most agencies believe their BOW course is adequate? If so, why the laundry list of followups? If not, are they doing a disservice to students by creating a system wherein only taking a small bite of the pie is an option?
FWIW, the second sentence doesn't follow from the first. Optimum does not mean free from flaws (i.e. "perfect"). In engineering (and other pursuits) we have any number of conflicting requirements. We seek an optimized design. The lowest possible safe structural mass for an airplane is optimum. Any more is sub-optimal. Neither are perfect.
I guess I will never fully understand the need to pigeonhole others in such a fashion. We all dive for different reasons and that that's OK, in fact it's laudable. When it comes to diving, it's ALWAYS work. Virtually no one dives without at least a modicum of effort. But then, a lot of Scuba is driven by ego. We count dives, compare bottom times, effort and somehow try to compete with each other in a non-competitive sport. I guess that's just human nature and I wish I were immune.
Somehow the old adage, "Experts built the Titanic while noobs built the Ark" seems to come to mind here.
Blackwood
Contributor
The execution of the course is done by an individual: the instructor. I have taught a couple of these courses and was careful to not put my students into this situation. That being said, many, many years ago in Bonaire I did such a course for a wife of a ScubaBoardian. I was told his wife could NOT learn and she had a tough time with having her mask off. I can't remember how many times she told me she couldn't do it... and it took me a couple of hours in a pool to get her somewhat comfortable with this skill. She then INSISTED on doing a shore dive. Why? She was intent on conquering her fears. Weeks later, my hand healed from her crushing it during that short dive.
This past month, I got to dive with Judy during our Cozumel Invasion. I kidded with her about my hand and we all thought it was great that she was able to work through it. Now, according to you, should I have insisted on her doing a full course before I gave her a taste? I don't think so, and neither does Judy. Was I at fault for Judy's terror as we waded into the bay at Plaza Resort Bonaire? No, the terror was her's alone. Mind you, I did this while I was a NAUI instructor... should we blame NAUI for this? No, the instructor is responsible for the student while they are in the water with them. As an instructor, I have to anticipate their response to a variety of situations and use those to teach them to make decisions for themselves. I've failed an AOW student for not calling a dive but an OW student hasn't developed that situational awareness. I have to be sure that they are safe.I'm sure one could. To me it's obvious that any instruction is better than no instruction. A short course is better than no course and even a resort course is better than no course.
We have heard of that kind of packaging right here in this thread and even elsewhere on the board. Sometimes the thought of combining them all together gets decried as "Zero to Hero". Let's face it: people love to bitch and complain. If they didn't I wouldn't have much of a forum.
As noted in the example above, I don't think so. Why did they offer three quarters of Russian at UF? Why didn't they teach me EVERYTHING in the first quarter? Ah, there was too much, but they knew I needed a few breaks to let things jell, so they broke up an entire year of study into three discrete units. Could I have just taken the first quarter and said "to hell with this!"??? I probably should have, but instead it became my major.
If there is room for improvement, then it really wasn't optimal was it? Optimal is the best and if you can improve it, then it's really not the best. As an instructor my next class is always a bit better than the last one. When I finally teach that "optimal" class, I'll retire with pride.
On the criteria for selecting a course I will say that for me the only criterion was convenience. I knew that there were different agencies, but I had no idea what the difference was or even if there was a difference. I knew that there was a "trial dive" (e.g. PADI Discover Scuba) in which I could make one scuba dive with no more instruction than would be offered there and then, and with no previous training or experience required. I also knew (or thought I knew, since the reality was different) that I would have to take my mask off and replace it under water. (I was actually only required to flood it half way and clear it for that dive.)
I don't think I was aware that I could take the pool and classroom portion of an OW course at home and finish the OW at a resort. In fact, I was so nervous about the idea of taking my mask off, and breathing while my nose was directly exposed to water, that I postponed learning to dive for several decades, though I've been a snorkeler all my life, as well as a freediver if 5 or 6 feet of depth qualifies to be called freediving. As a child I regularly dove to 6 feet or so in the pool and in the ocean. And since getting my scuba certification I've taken a freediving class as well, and have made a dive to 28 meters. 20 meters is no longer too terribly difficult for me. Scuba and freediving are very different activities, and I enjoy both. I have no interest in the extremes of either.
When I finally decided to give scuba a try I inquired about a class at the resort I was at for snorkeling on Bonaire. I checked "Yes" under "Do you take any prescription medicines" and was informed I could not take even the PADI Discover Scuba class without a doctor's authorization, so it was not until a year or so later, at a resort in Belize, where I came prepared with the doctor's form, that I took the class.
There was one dive shop on the island. There was no choice of agencies or shopping for the best price. I was there for snorkeling, and trying out scuba was a fortuitous addition to my planned activities. On my PADI Discover Scuba dive, I was so seasick by the time we reached the dive site, and had so much difficulty equalizing my ears, that I decided not to continue, but the next week I decided to give it another shot, and I did so much better that I went on and got my OW certification.
If I had known about the "resort course" system, I would have chosen my agency based on speaking with the instructors beforehand to gauge their attitudes, rather than on any consideration about the underlying agencies or costs. I figure all the agencies are adequate, and instructor attitude is what matters. I was fortunate, as I've commented before, that my instructor in Belize was very competent, and very patient with me, especially with my difficulty equalizing on those first couple of dives, and my nervousness about taking off my mask, which in the end turned out not to be hard at all.
So to summarize, for me, convenience was the only criterion: I wanted to take the class somewhere I was going to be anyway. I suppose for some people cost could be a consideration. But I figure that cutting corners on cost is seldom if ever a good idea, especially on training in an activity that poses significant risks for the untrained or poorly trained. I think my training was adequate for the kind of diving I do. And I do believe that the risk increases when one moves from recreational diving to technical diving, where a direct ascent to the surface is no longer an option.
I don't think I was aware that I could take the pool and classroom portion of an OW course at home and finish the OW at a resort. In fact, I was so nervous about the idea of taking my mask off, and breathing while my nose was directly exposed to water, that I postponed learning to dive for several decades, though I've been a snorkeler all my life, as well as a freediver if 5 or 6 feet of depth qualifies to be called freediving. As a child I regularly dove to 6 feet or so in the pool and in the ocean. And since getting my scuba certification I've taken a freediving class as well, and have made a dive to 28 meters. 20 meters is no longer too terribly difficult for me. Scuba and freediving are very different activities, and I enjoy both. I have no interest in the extremes of either.
When I finally decided to give scuba a try I inquired about a class at the resort I was at for snorkeling on Bonaire. I checked "Yes" under "Do you take any prescription medicines" and was informed I could not take even the PADI Discover Scuba class without a doctor's authorization, so it was not until a year or so later, at a resort in Belize, where I came prepared with the doctor's form, that I took the class.
There was one dive shop on the island. There was no choice of agencies or shopping for the best price. I was there for snorkeling, and trying out scuba was a fortuitous addition to my planned activities. On my PADI Discover Scuba dive, I was so seasick by the time we reached the dive site, and had so much difficulty equalizing my ears, that I decided not to continue, but the next week I decided to give it another shot, and I did so much better that I went on and got my OW certification.
If I had known about the "resort course" system, I would have chosen my agency based on speaking with the instructors beforehand to gauge their attitudes, rather than on any consideration about the underlying agencies or costs. I figure all the agencies are adequate, and instructor attitude is what matters. I was fortunate, as I've commented before, that my instructor in Belize was very competent, and very patient with me, especially with my difficulty equalizing on those first couple of dives, and my nervousness about taking off my mask, which in the end turned out not to be hard at all.
So to summarize, for me, convenience was the only criterion: I wanted to take the class somewhere I was going to be anyway. I suppose for some people cost could be a consideration. But I figure that cutting corners on cost is seldom if ever a good idea, especially on training in an activity that poses significant risks for the untrained or poorly trained. I think my training was adequate for the kind of diving I do. And I do believe that the risk increases when one moves from recreational diving to technical diving, where a direct ascent to the surface is no longer an option.
Im sorry I dont have the dive bum mentality,(I do have the bumbersticker) I dont mind putting a label on it. It doesnt have to be a spiritual experiance for me... Please tell me how that pigeonhole's someone. Because im labeling you or using a descriptive word to explain what something is to me. I am a white guy I have black friends, sometimes when I point them out I might say something like the black guy at the end of the bar with the blue cap on. Did I just pigeonhole him because I called him black and not human...? So no Sportdiving Fisherman for you eh? Scuba human with the pointy thing that dives alot...
Dude what planet are you on? Oh wait your in the keys that explains it... You right there are alot of ego driven divers that frequent your area. I only count bottom time for dive planning, I lost track of how many dives I've done (exact number) along time ago. Though counting dives is a requiremnet from the agencies in order to move along thru the curriculum and cert process. Or do you not verify what your students have really done before the come to you? You dont like to compete I get it, some are just not up for any challenges if they have something to loose. Sit back play xbox, dont go outside play some one on one BBall... By the way who the hell you are you to be giving me crap about how I view what it is im doing. You are no different. You dont like your scuba to be called a sport, then dont call it one. Oh wait, if you dont sell it use it teach it it most be crap right...Your own words to me earlier.
I know for a fact you have no proof of that. I would take the Titanic over the Ark any day. I'll pass on the sci-fi...
If they loose, don't you lose?
Yep... Funny, very funny. No really I enjoyed that
I must have had my mind on something else...
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Blackwood
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If we want to go down the "it's the instructor" path, who's responsibility is it for the original and sustained certification of poor instructors?
Lol I said that where? I have no problem with taking non-certified divers out. Hell, I've considered leadership qualifications just so I could dive with my non-diver friends.
Let's face it: people love to bitch and complain. If they didn't I wouldn't have much of a forum.
hah! No doubt.
If you're arguing that "optimal" means "free from flaws" or "no room for improvement," I think you're just in the mood for a fight.
Optimum involves compromise.
In a world free from constraints, they would be one and the same. I don't live in that world. Time is one constraint. Information transferred is another. A perfect class would teach you everything there is to know with 100% retention in a duration approaching zero. Quantity of information transferred and time spent doing so are opposing constraints. Optimal is somewhere in between those extremes. Sub optimal is either too long or not enough taught.
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