Talk about :gans:
I never suggested that training should or could answer all questions (to attempt to do so is as foolish as trying to stop the tide. What I suggested was Daniel's question concerning his own capabilities and whether they were sufficient for him to keep diving would have been answered if his training was more complete. The mere fact that he has such worries is proof positive that something in his training was lacking.
:gans:
This is a valid question EVEN AFTER a 100 hour course. You can't train out trepidation.
No one is belittling anyone, except perhaps you attempting to belittle me, and I really don't mind, I can afford to absorb your disdain without injury.
Oh Thal, I am not belittling you, but I am having fun here, no question. You inspired the whole concept of you being paranoid when you recited your credentials yet once more. Personally, I think it explains a lot about your feelings towards training.
There is no need to wonder, when DEMA engaged several of us to experiment with short course formats they were quite clear as to why they wanted the longer courses replaced with shorter ones, to produce more customers.
Why didn't you have enough customers? It appears that some thought your course to be onerous.
Perhaps that was for your own good, you might not have been ready.
So, the class is designed to discourage people from getting certified? I can testify that it works!!! Now, since not getting certified did not keep me out of the water, do you contend that diving so long without any certification at all was good for me as well? I made my first dive in Lake Underhill in Orlando and was certified almost 30 years later. Thank goodness I put off my certification until I was finally ready. I might have gotten hurt (or worse) if I had been certified before I was ready!
I tend to use the dictionary definition:
on·er·ous/ˈōnərəs/Adjective
1. (of a task, duty, or responsibility) Involving a burdensome amount of effort and difficulty.
2. Involving heavy obligations.
I suppose that the sort of training I conducted might be found to be burdensome by you, it was never considered burdensome by any who actually took it though. l Like most things in life, you get what you put into it and it sounds like you cheated yourself, too bad.
"By any who actually took it". That says a lot. Apparently, that wasn't that many according to you. It appears that it was onerous to most of America, else they would have flocked to your class. As it is, divers vote with their fins and take the class that best suits them. Nothing wrong with that.
Paranoia
Definition
Paranoia is an unfounded or exaggerated distrust of others, sometimes reaching delusional proportions. Paranoid individuals constantly suspect the motives of those around them, and believe that certain individuals, or people in general, are "out to get them."
Nope, doesn't work.
You're kidding, right? The more I think about it, the more I see your paranoia towards the training agencies. Some paranoia is good. Heck, when it comes to DEMA, I am quite paranoid!
There you make an assumption without any information of data.
Actually, I get that from how you depict the boogiemen at DEMA trying to make courses shorter. My feeling from reading some of the literature of the time is that they were trying to make Scuba Diving FUN and available to the masses. Yes, I know that YOU were there, but I don't agree with your analysis of the situation.
If you just want to have fun, according to your analysis, you should just go dive.
Which is what I did in 1969.
Training, of any sort, is (after all) onerous and not fun.
Where did I suggest this? Humor me and quote that part for me. I actually ceased all diving when I almost killed myself. I was in a situation where I would never have been if I had a "minimum level of training".
I maintain that there is a minimum level of training that is necessary for someone with an honest appraisal of their skills to be able to enjoy diving as a potentially life long pursuit and that falls somewhere between sixty and 120 hours of training with ten or more dives. Now you can quibble about the exact number and have a difference of opinion with someone else without, perhaps, suggesting that what the do does not fun as an integral part of it.
You know, I'm going to agree with you here. I just disagree with your MO. In fact, I don't think you're ready with that small amount of training... I just feel that the agency method of dividing it up into smaller tid bits is a good way to do it. OW>AOW>Rescue>Specialties>Master Diver is a great way to do this over time. If, at any point, you are comfortable with your skill set, then just stop. It's up to you how far and how quickly you progress. Putting this into ONE CLASS is onerous and seems insurmountable to most. It's why they re-invented your wheel (much to your chagrin).
You neither know what my program was like, nor have you talked about to anyone who does. A graduate of my program StevePaulet is on this board on occasion and Burhan is very familiar with it, ask them if there was sufficient fun or if was over the top for someone who knew how to swim.
It doesn't matter, Thal. The public opinion is what really counts here. Either your class had a bad rep or you didn't market it very well. In any case, people saw a need for change and an opportunity to get more people diving. As you said, they are drawing from a different set, so all is good.
When you have no data, then anything fits. Please reference your data.
It's all anecdotal and works for me.
I think that the courses promulgated by most of the agencies fail to meet some critical criteria that I described earlier.
You don't teach them so they are... crap?
Mine is not the only acceptable way, I have never said that. My way in an end point that assures Competent performance from all participants, others have different approaches that reach the same target, from what I can tell, yours does not, and that is not a concern for you.
Earlier you suggested that I had not seen your course nor had I talked to anyone about it. The same is true for you here. You are making an assumption and a fallacious one at that.
Here's a great example of how one diver came out of a short course raring to go, confident and well prepared:
Was this the instructor or the agency's fault? According to the OP, it was obviously the instructor's fault. Unfortunately, the economics of instruction are still pretty skewed. Shops of yore under valued it to get bodies in the door to buy gear. With the advent of the Internet, that paradigm is useless and shops are still trying to figure it out.
Now that took guts to write, thanks for sharing cookenup.
Yes it did... it was a horrible experience.
My point being, I have never heard of such a thing occurring in a 100 hr course, anywhere.
You really didn't have this kind of open communication when you were actively teaching my friend. The information age tends to bring a lot more issues to light than ever before. That's a good thing.
We make sure that every diver is well prepared, to have fun ... or do whatever it is that they want to do.
Good for you! I do precisely the same thing in a shorter amount of time. Call me Mr Efficiency.
