PADI tables finally going away?

[The Chairman]

Tell ya what NetDoc and Kingpatzer, since you're soooo strict & intransigent on the term analog: Change the premise of "Classic Dive Analog Tables" to the "Mechanical Analog PADI Wheel" in my points below and the arguments still turn out valid and consistent:

Kev.. I'll give you consistent... but only in that you are consistently flawed in your analogies. Find some better analogies because I am not going to point out the flaws in these yet one more time.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Still waiting on straight forward responses to my questions to try and figure out what your issues actually are. How about just some 'yes' or 'no' answers. Then maybe expound on that with a few points about what your issues are.

Again, can you try to drop the rhetoric. Just for one post could you use "tables" and "PDCs" or "computers" without cluttering up the discussion with whatever it is you mean by 'analog' since we clearly are too stupid to understand, and tell us what your issues with not teaching from tables are?

You can do it if you try.

If you, for example, say:

"Tables are necessary to understand the basics of decompression theory." Then you've made a specific, concise claim that we can discuss.

But without actually knowing what your issue is other than whatever tables being analog has to do with it (again, we're just too dumb) then we're going no where.

Thanks.

But even without that, let's try and pick apart your claims as I understand them:

The basic digital calculator is a convenience but should never precede or replace fundamental knowledge & comprehension of analog four-operator arithmetic by hand.

This is a poor analogy that is not applicable here. Neither the PDC nor the Table are building the model by hand. They are both representative of deeper items that require a lot of pre-calculations and research to provide -- the details of which are not relevant to understanding the output.

The Dive table is far more comparable to a logarithmic table than learning basic arithmetic. What is comparable to basic mathematical operations would be the underlying decompression theory and understanding of nitrogen loading and off-gassing as related to depth and time.

Do you believe that decompression theory can not be taught without tables? (A simple answer please, it really is a yes or no question).

The basic personal dive computer (PDC) is a convenience but should not precede or replace fundamental knowledge & comprehension of analog dive tables.

There are two issues here, but both are wrapped up into somehow making "fundamental knowledge" directly tied to tables. Tables are not necessary to teach fundamental knowledge about decompression. Indeed, tables themselves come from the same sort of calculations that the PDC is dynamically doing.

Do you believe that decompression theory can not be taught without tables? (A simple answer please, it really is a yes or no question).

Number Theory is to elementary arithmetic just as Decompression Theory is to dive tables.

I'd agree with that point. But all analogies have their limits. Because this is a relatively sound analogy does not make the analogy of how basic mathematical functions are to calculators correctly comparable with how dive tables are to dive computers.

Do you believe that decompression theory can not be taught without tables? (A simple answer please, it really is a yes or no question).

The foundation and greater utility is first learning & comprehending elementary arithmetic, while the greater abstraction is going further to study & apply Number Theory, just as:

The foundation and greater utility is first learning & comprehending basic dive table decompression planning, while the greater abstraction is going further to study & apply Decompression Theory.

This is a false analogy. A correct analogy would be that foundation and greater utility is first learning and comprehending basic decompression theory and dive planning, while the simplified approximation of the results of the model (either a table or a PDC) is a tool to make dive planning feasible for someone unable to work out the calculations of the underlying model (which is most of us).

Do you believe that decompression theory can not be taught without tables? (A simple answer please, it really is a yes or no question).

Classic analog tables will always serve you.

With the exception of losing it, or damaging it so that it is unreadable, sure. But you still have to rely on a bottom timer and depth gage, both of which have failure rates. The timer will also have a battery that could die at a most inconvenient time if you are not being a responsible diver and checking your gear and caring for it appropriately.

Digital electronic dive computers while desirable & convenient

I agree on both claims about the properties of dive computers.

will just serve you until the battery needs a recharge or replacement (or the unit malfunctions).

Just like your bottom timer. Or if your depth gage fails. How are those intrinsically different?

classic analog tables => generated by continuous function algorithm, uses base 10 elementary arithmetic evaluations where needed (i.e. RNT calculations etc);

digital electronic computer => fast & efficient, uses binary logic for symbolic evaluation & data storage by discrete mathematical operations.]

Yes, the method of calculating the model can be different (though most all tables have been produced using computers for many years now, so the claim really isn't entirely true). But so what? Do you have any evidence at all that the underlying model being calculated is different in any way that effects divers?

I can calculate the the value of Pi using exceedingly precise measurements of a circle's properties, and do a whole lot of long division by hand.

I can use various logarithmic tables and solve Euler's identity for Pi.

I can calculate the value of pi by throwing food

I can calculate the value of pi using some elementary calculus and the formula

or

I can use particle physics and Heisenberg's uncertinty principle

I can use any number of discrete functions to calculate PI to any arbitrary number of digits, such as:

or

Would you like to explain how one of these methods is inherently superior to another?

I can look up a pre-printed value of pi, to say, 10,000 digits

Do you believe that one of those methods to be superior to another? Are the continuous functions going to provide you a better value for pi than the discrete functions?

 

[The Chairman]

Wow. I am in awe of that response. Very well laid out.

 

[DiveNav]

....I can calculate the value of pi by throwing food....

This was the best part

 

[John_B]

Tables are going the way of cuneiform on clay tablets, and rightly so, but I do agree that a PDC makes for a crummy dive planner. Yet that's no argument in favor of tables, but it's a great argument for a different kind of computer customized for planning purposes - like vplanner on a PC, or on your PDA if you want something portable.

But how to get the actual dive information from your PDC to whatever this future planning computer might be?

Vplanner is great for those who like it and don't mind schlepping around a PC on a dive boat, but it doesn't give you anyway to tie that planning tool to your actual dive profiles.

The current PDC planning functions contain your current dive profile(s) but at the expense of a usable interface and flexible what-if scenario planning.

The PC planning tools have usable interfaces and flexible what-if scenario planning tools but don't adequately track actual dive profiles (and aren't "dive boat friendly").

 

[boulderjohn]

Vplanner is great for those who like it and don't mind schlepping around a PC on a dive boat, but it doesn't give you anyway to tie that planning tool to your actual dive profiles.

Sure it does, if you have the right computer.

The Luiquivision X-1 computer comes without software. You have your choice of downloadable software packages. V-Planner is one of them.

 

[Kingpatzer]

The current PDC planning functions contain your current dive profile(s) but at the expense of a usable interface and flexible what-if scenario planning.

The issue of user-interface is something of a red herring with respect to the question of the validity of teaching the user of PDCs for dive planning.

User interfaces are ever changing targets. A bad user interface is, of course, not desirable, but the question of usability is separate from the discussion of functionality and suitability to purpose.

 

[FritzCat66]

But how to get the actual dive information from your PDC to whatever this future planning computer might be?

Sure it does, if you have the right computer.

As he indicated, there are computers with a real planner integrated, so that's one solution.

But you point out a valid issue: if the computer vendors don't put a decent planner inside their unit, then there needs to be a way of quickly and easily transferring critical dive data - most likely via wireless (WiFi, Bluetooth, etc.), and preferably in some yet-to-be-invented industry-standardized format - to another unit: a Palm, iPhone, PocketPC, or some kind of desktop, anything will do because good planners are available for all these platforms nowadays.

But still - Evolve the technology, don't devolve the monkey.

 

[John_B]

Sure it does, if you have the right computer.

The Luiquivision X-1 computer comes without software. You have your choice of downloadable software packages. V-Planner is one of them.

Cost (hardware and software)? Do you have to have a waterproof laptop computer to bring it on the dive boat? That's still a problem.

Frankly, that seems to be the kind of PDC that ought to be able to do everything including what-if planning right on the PDC itself. (Because the display is large enough to hold enough the information you would need.) I'm curious if it does...

The issue of user-interface is something of a red herring with respect to the question of the validity of teaching the user of PDCs for dive planning.

No, I disagree. That's the only way you are ever going to teach them. If the user interface sucks, it won't be used.

User interfaces are ever changing targets. A bad user interface is, of course, not desirable, but the question of usability is separate from the discussion of functionality and suitability to purpose.

Again, I disagree. If you can't see the information on the little PDC displays most of us have today, then it won't be usable, which means it won't be used.

The manufacturers of PDCs are eventually going to have to upgrade the LCD/LED/OLED displays. Their prices on these old digital watch style components has been declining year after year; there is no excuse for not innovating where the new component prices aren't out of line with the older components that these manufacturers continue to use in their PDCs.

If you truly want the tables to go the way of the dinosaur in your average recreational dive training, that deficiency is going to have to be addressed first.

 

[Blackwood]

Cost (hardware and software)?

Do you have to have a waterproof laptop computer to bring it on the dive boat? That's still a problem.

1) Expensive

2) It's good to 600 feet, so I don't think waterproof is a huge concern. :mooner: