PADI tables finally going away?

[Scott]

i'm sure this has already been said multiple times but BOTH should be taught. it is true from here on out computers will be the defacto. but if you travel and go to some of the places that are less developed but have better diving then computers or computer repair may not be available. i think that [-]groups like PADI and NAUI[/-] more instructors need to make their training a bit more stringent and make sure that students know the principles behind BOTH mediums. that way the student can adapt to any environment that they run into.

Minor correction
All agencies I am familiar with give the instructor the freedom to teach either or both. I teach tables because that is what the store wants taught during academics. By the time the OW dives are done they are proficient with both.
I'm sure I am not the only one doing this.

 

[Paladin]

I have used tables since 1965. I was taught to run the calculations three times, to make sure they were right, then run them again to make sure again. I can be pretty anal about making sure the figures are correct.

Even should I decide, for whatever reason, to dive my computer in the usual mode, I would still be diving according to the tables. I have worked as a computer tech and I understand how computers work. That's why I don't completely trust them.

My tables have never let me down. They are fiendishly simple to use and completely reliable. Not to mention that they are more conservative than computers. The way I see it, when following a computer, a diver has a greater chance of getting too close to the limit.

Personally, I prefer to use tables. Others, of course, have the right to use whatever method they choose.

 

[Quero]

Minor correction
All agencies I am familiar with give the instructor the freedom to teach either or both. I teach tables because that is what the store wants taught during academics. By the time the OW dives are done they are proficient with both.
I'm sure I am not the only one doing this.

SDI, if I'm not mistaken (I'm not an SDI instructor), offers only the computer version for Open Water and Nitrox divers. They developed their recreational curriculum as a foundation for their longstanding and highly regarded technical curriculum through TDI. The way it was explained to me by TDI/SDI reps, TDI tech divers use formulae and computer software to cut their deco schedules rather than using tables, so requiring computers rather than teaching tables in the recreational-level courses was the only logical choice for their foundation curriculum.

As far as what I personally do--I listen to my students. There's not a lot to be gained by forcing students to march through table calculations if they are convinced that they will only be planning and executing their dives with a computer, and there's no point in teaching only computers to people who won't be buying one any time soon. I will teach what the student is motivated to learn. If they want computer only, they will get that. If they want tables only, they will get that. If they want both, they get both.

 

[Atom]

Even should I decide, for whatever reason, to dive my computer in the usual mode, I would still be diving according to the tables. I have worked as a computer tech and I understand how computers work. That's why I don't completely trust them.

My tables have never let me down. They are fiendishly simple to use and completely reliable. Not to mention that they are more conservative than computers. The way I see it, when following a computer, a diver has a greater chance of getting too close to the limit.

My tables haven't let me down... but my mechanical depth gauge has .... all equipment can fail... if you trust an electronic bottom timer to work , it makes no sense not to trust a dive computer, we're talking about simple/proven software in a very static environment. This is nothing like maintaining a computer plugged on the internet.

But yeah, tables are a lot more conservative if you do a multi-level dive planned as a square profile dive... otherwise it's pretty much the same.

 

[Krazytomdiver]

As a dive guide,I work with two dive computers:usually,one on air(console) & one on nitrox(wrist). Include in all my dive briefs are the instructions to follow my dive plan/profile. A dive table is where I sit after the dives to sign & stamp log books.

"living life without a hard bottom"
KT

 

[caseybird]

But yeah, tables are a lot more conservative if you do a multi-level dive planned as a square profile dive... otherwise it's pretty much the same.

Also, unfortunately, a lot shorter.

 

[notivago]

My tables haven't let me down... but my mechanical depth gauge has .... all equipment can fail... if you trust an electronic bottom timer to work , it makes no sense not to trust a dive computer, we're talking about simple/proven software in a very static environment. This is nothing like maintaining a computer plugged on the internet.

But yeah, tables are a lot more conservative if you do a multi-level dive planned as a square profile dive... otherwise it's pretty much the same.

Mechanical devices are less prone to failure than electronic ones. If I do remember well, industry standards to failure tolerance when regarding mechanic stuff is 2% while electronics is 5%.

Also, you can double check your depth gauge and chronometer with your buddy and other divers, you simply can't do that with your computer. Even your oxygen consumption you can double check, mine gauge was actually acting up on one of mine last dive, usually I "eat trough" a lot more air than my wife, when she got to 70 Bar mine was still 90 and not changing, I got suspicious and saw little bubbles coming out of the hose in the junction, fumbling with it dropped to 30 bar, not nice.

With tables, you have to plan for the dive, you go down with your limit already set, when you get to the limits, even if your gear is acting up, others will signal to you to either come to the proper depth or stop at the proper time. And if it all fail, tables are more conservative so you have more leeway.

With computer you can simply dive to the limit, and if it acts up, there is no way you can double check its results, you have to thrust in it and you will be walking a lot closer to the edge as they are less conservative and thus you are more prone to accident.

I like safety, so I like a saying from a friend of mine: One equals zero, two is good.

I don't see the computer as a substitute for the rest of the gear, I see it as a very cool redundancy.

 

[The Chairman]

Mechanical devices are less prone to failure than electronic ones.

Electronic devices are less prone to failure than human fingers not to mention the fact that they don't get narced! :shocked2:

A table and a PDC are only tools. How, or if, you use either is all up to the individual. The bravado with which some describe tables amazes me. It's like the poster has achieved some BIG accomplishment by using tables or they are inherently safer by doing so.

:gans:​

No one is special for using either. Just use them appropriately please.

 

[notivago]

Electronic devices are less prone to failure than human fingers not to mention the fact that they don't get narced! :shocked2:

A table and a PDC are only tools. How, or if, you use either is all up to the individual. The bravado with which some describe tables amazes me. It's like the poster has achieved some BIG accomplishment by using tables or they are inherently safer by doing so.

:gans:​

No is special for using either. Just use them appropriately please.

You wont be narced while doing your table as you do it before you dive. Being narced can make you ignore your dive plan or the computer, I really don't see the difference here.

I don't see any bravado on using the tables, it is a fact that with tables you can double check your plan as many times as you like and even have other people do the same for you. You simply can't do that with computers.

Sure both are tools, but to be honest they are not even the same kind of tool as the table are something that you use to plan your dive previous to it and the computer is more like something to use on the dive, at least mine can only give a plan for you next dive, but it goes not further.

If I want to, say, see if I can make 3 dives in a single day at such and such depth and times, my computer has no function to tell me that. It can replace a watch, it can replace a depth gauge, it even throw in some bonus stuff, but it simple does not function as a planer.

And it costs a hell more than a RDP which is given in the OW course.

Now, the only benefit that I see in taking the table out of the courses is to promote computer sales, forcing people to buy computers when then would not usually, when they can perfectly dive without one with the same safety.

By the way, Quero said you could rent it easily anywere(it is in portuguese): NDS - Mergulho

As can be seeing there, no option to rent a computer.

 

[The Chairman]

You wont be narced while doing your table as you do it before you dive. Being narced can make you ignore your dive plan or the computer, I really don't see the difference here.

The dive master says to plan your dive predicated on 70 max, you now find yourself at 95 ft. While you're having to deal with refiguring your profile slightly narced, my PDC has made the adjustment on the fly.

I don't see any bravado on using the tables,

Get real. The bravado is so thick with some people that it makes it hard to wade through their posts.

it is a fact that with tables you can double check your plan as many times as you like and even have other people do the same for you. You simply can't do that with computers.

WHAT??? I can run scenarios until my fingers ache, including variables on the mix and depth. I can even use different PDCs to see how they approach the same dive. This is the kind of myth that learning PDCs in your OW class should eliminate.

Sure both are tools, but to be honest they are not even the same kind of tool as the table are something that you use to plan your dive previous to it and the computer is more like something to use on the dive, at least mine can only give a plan for you next dive, but it goes not further.

Nothing replaces experience. However, if I need that tight of planning, I can always break out deco weenie, vPlanner and the like.

If I want to, say, see if I can make 3 dives in a single day at such and such depth and times, my computer has no function to tell me that. It can replace a watch, it can replace a depth gauge, it even throw in some bonus stuff, but it simple does not function as a planer.

But they were all multilevel dives and you now find that you can't do that third dive... but me and my PDC can.

And it costs a hell more than a RDP which is given in the OW course.

I don't provide an RDP in my OW courses.

Now, the only benefit that I see in taking the table out of the courses is to promote computer sales, forcing people to buy computers when then would not usually, when they can perfectly dive without one with the same safety.

Oh yeah... accuse me of nefarious intent all you want, but I don't sell PDCs. I teach PDCs because that's what my students will be diving with. I don't buy into the macho "tables are better because real divers use tables" BS. Nor do I buy into all the other fallacious arguments you have presented.