padi open water card,18 metre limit questions and is advanced worth it or needed

[Lorenzoid]

Whether you end up getting the AOW card or not, it sounds like you're certainly getting some good diving experience. "Thistlegorm last week"--I have no pity on you. You're doing dives that some of us only dream of. Seems that by the time you do the AOW course you'll already have quite a bit of dive experience. As has been mentioned here, a lot of people--maybe even most--go for the AOW course immediately after OW, or within a handful of dives after OW, just as a way of getting in another five dives of different kinds with an instructor to help build up their confidence.

As far as the insurance issue goes, does anyone know what DAN has to say about it? My insurance is through DAN, and while I myself don't believe I've ever dived beyond what might reasonably be considered my "training and experience," I have not given any thought to whether DAN's terms specifically take training and experience into account and/or whether they give weight to the certification level a person has achieved. Gee, I guess I could go read my DAN policy instead of asking you people

 

[Sortsol]

I took my OW and AOW back to back on the same live-a-board in Cairns many years ago... At the time I didn't know any better and thought I was just being smart and knocking out two birds in one trip. Looking back, I'm glad I had a good instructor who cared and spent lots of time working with us and demonstrating to us the importance of depth and air consumption. I'm glad I took both classes, but not everyone is going to have the same experience I had with their instructor. The important thing is to always dive within your limits, whether those limits exist because of official or unofficial training is up to the individual diver and their dive buddy.

 

[mikescooling]

I wanted to skip Advanced and do intro to tech. The tech instructor said I was not ready, but he did teach the Advanced class to me. He spiced it up and made it cool. I will continue getting cards from him.
Mike

 

[Cixelsyd]

As far as the insurance issue goes, does anyone know what DAN has to say about it? My insurance is through DAN, and while I myself don't believe I've ever dived beyond what might reasonably be considered my "training and experience," I have not given any thought to whether DAN's terms specifically take training and experience into account and/or whether they give weight to the certification level a person has achieved. Gee, I guess I could go read my DAN policy instead of asking you people

DAN is far more forgiving on depth. The Standard Plan covers accidents at planned maximum depths down to 130 ft and the Preferred and Master Plans have no depth limits for coverage.

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/insurance/compare.asp

 

[Buoyant1]

In what way does an Advanced Open Water certification have any link with advanced dives, or diving?

It's an advancement of the Open Water course. Open Water is entry-level. AOW is an extension of entry-level, not advanced diving.

Try to get on a boat that is taking divers to the Spiegel Grove in Florida and NOT need to dive with either an instructor or DM! Some places look at the card as the "end all" to advanced diving, and don't look at your experience...the emphasis on OW vs AOW in the diving industry is a farce!

It's hard to place a quantifiable 'benefit ratio' between the fast-track development that can be gained from effective tuition, compared to the slow-track development gained from learning from mistakes.

With a decent instructor, a training dive should provide more definitive development that a higher number of general dives that have no specific learning objectives, no external knowledge input and no development critique or feedback.

You can do 100 dives badly and gain no improvement... you can also do 5 focused training dives and make huge ability strides... or not...


99% of the people I've experienced that did OW, then immediately AOW have the skills of an extreme newbie diver...the FEW I've seen that can seem to handle themselves are just that FEW! And yeah, I know a few with 100 dives and all the certs that are no better


I don't quite understand this depth obsession with regards to AOW.


I didn't bring UP the depth obsession the OP did

If someone takes the course for the wrong reasons (for a piece of plastic and a fictional depth rating), then they were probably overlooking what they could have gained from it. If they view the course as worthless, except for a fixation on getting a card to go deeper, then they probably didn't take the time to investigate what benefits could have been gained from the course, nor did they research and question potential instructors to ensure that their own personal objectives could have been obtained.

Instructors tend to try and satisfy your personal objectives. If your personal objectives do not stretch beyond "getting a card to satisfy dive centres so you can dive to 30m", then that is what they will give you. In contrast, if you intelligently reason a criteria of specific skill and knowledge development, then your instructor will have a starting-point from which to focus your training.

Personally, as an instructor, when I encounter a student with no motivation, no goals, no focus and no insight into their own requirements, I find it very hard to add any 'extra value' to their course. You want a bland course to get a new card... you got it....

Ask and you recieve...



Yep... what did you ask for?


I took what they gave me! Local shop gives you Deep, Night, Nav, Search and Recovery, no choice, take it or leave it! We're landlocked and in a quarry, and don't ahve the luxury of that....I also didn't feel like taking it in the Keys and doing "boat diving" as an option...gimme a break!


Great advice. Did you ever consider work as a motivational speaker... or a life coach?



If you had motivation, you'd be out diving as a buddy pair, with rented cylinders and not a DM in sight. Nobody gets 'forced' into anything. Dive operations may have set policies about certs/depths... but most of the talk about that is absolute myth. In 19 years, 4000+ dives in 16 different countries, I have only ever encountered a bare handful of centres that had absolute, strict policies on AOW beyond 18m.

Personally, given the amount of whinging about it, I'd hazard a guess that many people were just passing on 'scuba myths' as an excuse to have a poke at a course they didn't enjoy (because they didn't approach it in a positive, insightful manner).

Yeah, been to the Florida Keys lately? most of the OPs I've encountered won't take you anywhere that exceeds 25-30 feet unless you have a card, or are willing to pay for a DM to hold your hand! I'm not saying EVERY operator down there is like that (money talks) but you get nothing WITH nothing! I did a whole bunch of "advanced dives" with my usual partners, and finally decided that I wanted to do some advanced dives elsewhere, so I needed the card or needed to pay $$$$ to have a DM babysit me...the card was easier!

Look, I don't set the rules on how these places do their business, maybe where YOU'RE diving they bend the "rules", and look past your certs..unfortunately I've only encountered people that "want the card" or want you to pay!

 

[DMDavid]

Yeah, been to the Florida Keys lately? most of the OPs I've encountered won't take you anywhere that exceeds 25-30 feet unless you have a card, or are willing to pay for a DM to hold your hand! I'm not saying EVERY operator down there is like that (money talks) but you get nothing WITH nothing! I did a whole bunch of "advanced dives" with my usual partners, and finally decided that I wanted to do some advanced dives elsewhere, so I needed the card or needed to pay $$$$ to have a DM babysit me...the card was easier!

Look, I don't set the rules on how these places do their business, maybe where YOU'RE diving they bend the "rules", and look past your certs..unfortunately I've only encountered people that "want the card" or want you to pay!

I have to agree, many of the dive ops in the FL Keys want either a AOW card or you'll have to get a DM to dive with you if you want to go beyond the 10m/33ft.

The few exceptions have been if you can prove recent experience at a deeper depth with a DM or Instructor sign off.
At this point it would have been easier and cheaper to get the AOW card.

 

[Buoyant1]

I have to agree, many of the dive ops in the FL Keys want either a AOW card or you'll have to get a DM to dive with you if you want to go beyond the 10m/33ft.

The few exceptions have been if you can prove recent experience at a deeper depth with a DM or Instructor sign off.
At this point it would have been easier and cheaper to get the AOW card.

And the 33ft is a correct depth for that area because there aren't many places in between...a few exceptions, but otherwise it's 15-30 ft. reefs, or wrecks at 80+

Exactly MY experience! Up until my "AOW" I made sure that my dive buddies physically SIGNED my logs just in case. I was a disillusioned "experience will open doors" kind of person. One place I happened to go took it as proof of deep experience, but wasn't going anywhere other than shallow reefs the week I was there. Another place saw my log and said "great, but we'll need to stick you with a DM to do the dives you want, and it will cost you $50. more each trip!" So I figured I better succumb to it and just get the card!

I opted for the card before I went the next time and had no problems, in fact no one even bothered to look at my log to see if I had any experience at anything, so the card is the way to go!

 

[Jax]

Devon,

I have to agree with Ben and David -- the Keys definitely asks for AOW cert cards and wants to see your log book if you request a site deeper than 40 ft (11-12m). Furthermore, if you haven't dived in a year, you have to do a checkout dive with their DM.

My husband came in under the window of one year by just a couple of weeks, but he'd have been highly PO'd if he'd had to do a check-out or be baby-sat.

This is a result of our "everyone else is to blame for me getting hurt because I'm stupid" litigious society. PADI may not require a class to match depth, but many dive ops do.

 

[CuNanoTube]

My first dive off of a charter was to 30 (ish) metres (The Boland in Lake Erie). It was my 15th or so dive and I went with my club. I was comfortable and did not have any issues, but I could see how someone could be intimidated by that depth. I am a huge fan of redundant safety and in addition to my gas management plan I carried my 19cft pony. It is more about comfort than what card you carry.

 

[k ellis]

And the 33ft is a correct depth for that area because there aren't many places in between...a few exceptions, but otherwise it's 15-30 ft. reefs, or wrecks at 80+

Exactly MY experience! Up until my "AOW" I made sure that my dive buddies physically SIGNED my logs just in case. I was a disillusioned "experience will open doors" kind of person. One place I happened to go took it as proof of deep experience, but wasn't going anywhere other than shallow reefs the week I was there. Another place saw my log and said "great, but we'll need to stick you with a DM to do the dives you want, and it will cost you $50. more each trip!" So I figured I better succumb to it and just get the card!

I opted for the card before I went the next time and had no problems, in fact no one even bothered to look at my log to see if I had any experience at anything, so the card is the way to go!

wow for about 150 dollars you can get the card. That means three dives with the dive master would land you the same price as it would be to just take the course!