PADI not teaching dive tables anymore?

[rhwestfall]

Well, you should have been on our boat in Tobermory last year. There were two newly minted divers with us (actually earning their AOW IIRC). Neither of them had PDC's. The instructor/DM on the boat required they follow what the tables allowed them, mandated they increase SI's to accomplish the dive profile of the desired dive, and follow their plans (even though his computer showed something else). I don't know if they still to this day own PDCs or will be renting them for future diving.....

Keep in mind, people dove tables long before computers were being used. No, you don't get to spend as much time on the dive....

Balance your objectives with your equipment selection.

Either way, have fun but know what you are doing....

 

[ScottyK]

My question was not whether I will ever be forced to use tables, or about dissecting the various scenarios that everyone is posting to support thier views.

As far as I'm concerned, part of "training with the tools your are using" is understanding how they work. Spending time learning the tables gave me a greater appreciation and deeper understanding of what my computer was doing. For life support equipment in a sport as serious as diving, it was time well spent for me.

I will also never take a balloon on a dive, but the class time spent on understanding how air compresses at depth was also very valuable. Especially for those that don't pick up on abstract mathematical concepts as quickly.

No matter how I parse the data, it keeps coming back to "get the class done faster and get all new divers buying a computer on day one...."

 

[rhwestfall]

Although I am a proponent of knowledge of table use, what you are describing can/should be a part of any dive instruction (table or PDC) regardles, and could be as simple as seeing how tissue loading is taking place and the impact on and during repetitive dives on a dive simulator such as DiveNav e-Dive (Alberto's) software. Tables are just a form of a user interface. Principals need to be taught/comprehended. Whatever equipment is used to implement the methodology is what needs to be also taught, and can vary.

Now, as to my stance, the lowest financial impact is Tables. I think they should be a component, because they can usually provide a means when "stuff" happens. You may need to sit a day, but can still do some additional diving....

 

[Hawkwood]

.....

No matter how I parse the data, it keeps coming back to "get the class done faster and get all new divers buying a computer on day one...."

Obviously those of use who directly and simply answered your question will never change your opinion.

 

[ScottyK]

Obviously those of use who directly and simply answered your question will never change your opinion.

I have seen nothing that assures me that the two or so hours of class time saved by removing table training is beneficial for the student.

Coming from the perspective of putting my kids through a class, why would I spend my hard earned money with PADI for a less comprehensive education?


If I missed that part, please feel free to quote it for me.....

 

[Hawkwood]

Why do you assume that corners are being cut?

I can teach my OW students some basic decompression theory and show/explain how dive computers work and how to use them. I now have a heck of a lot of time now to teach them about decompression theory, etc. than before.

Believe me, when teaching a class of eight students, inevitably one or two students would take up an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out the mechanics of using the table, not even getting to what it all meant. Now I can take that wasted time and actually teach them something. Of course this is just my observations from teaching.

Bill

I have seen nothing that assures me that the two or so hours of class time saved by removing table training is beneficial for the student.

Coming from the perspective of putting my kids through a class, why would I spend my hard earned money with PADI for a less comprehensive education?


If I missed that part, please feel free to quote it for me.....

Done, Post #5

 

[ScottyK]

Why do you assume that corners are being cut?

I can teach my OW students some basic decompression theory and show/explain how dive computers work and how to use them. I now have a heck of a lot of time now to teach them about decompression theory, etc. than before.

Believe me, when teaching a class of eight students, inevitably one or two students would take up an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out the mechanics of using the table, not even getting to what it all meant. Now I can take that wasted time and actually teach them something. Of course this is just my observations from teaching.

Bill

Bill- Before I get into this reply, please note that I'm trying to have an honest discussion and not disrespect you in any way. Your above quote gets to the heart of the matter for me in two ways, and I did read it carefully when you originally posted it.

Two things about it bother me:

First, I highlighted the rest of that paragraph for you. I think this part has more to do with the reason PADI dropped tables than some are willing to admit. Believe me, I understand that teaching, and being surrounded by less intelligent people in general can both be frustrating.

It seems to me that there are other things that could be streamlined for a longer deco theory discussion. I also like the idea of some computer training "in addition" to the tables,as the two subjects compliment each other.

Secondly, deco theory is probably the most important thing to drill into a divers head besides "keep breathing". Are you seriously trying to convince me that dropping table training is:

a) leaving students with a better understanding of the practical ramifications of the theory, and how it applies to real world diving? The tables are the interface between the theory and what it actually means to divers...

b) not taking away the best tool you have (in the testing phase) of being 100% sure that students are "getting it"?

I'm just not seeing an upside. Based on curriculum, it seems like every other certification agency I've looked into so far is in agreement with me....

 

[Hawkwood]

My students walk away from my class with a very good understanding of "deco theory", I have no fear in that. I don't have to teach them the mechanics of how to read and use a table in order for them to learn "deco theory".

We will simply not agree.

 

[lowviz]

Deco theory, oxygen windows (at least three meanings to this one term), daily variations in human physiology, M values, stress, silent bubbles, carbon dioxide retention, hydration, mental state... There is nothing even remotely exact about deco theory.

That is why Buhlman, Haldane, Ratio Deco, Bubble models, and just plain conservative wild-ass-guessing (ascend to 20', suck all remaining gas down then walk home) all work to some degree on any given day. They are all attempting to describe one and only one thing, -YOU. And be most aware the you are a moving target. It is a crapshoot, but you can load the dice by attempting to understand the variables.

I don't need tables, but they were a great place to start. Just me. YMMV.

 

[TSandM]

I think the problem is that, for a lot of people, the mechanics of table use are sufficiently complicated that that's where they focus. I remember, when I took OW, I was fascinated by the patterns I saw in the numbers, and I asked questions about them. Nobody else in the class had even noticed them, because they were all too busy remembering which row and column, and which side of the chart to use.

I think you can do a MUCH better job of conveying the ideas to students, by showing them the output of a program like GAP, that plots saturations in various compartments and how it changes as you go through your ascent, than you can by putting them through table-use exercises that are likely to distract them from the concepts and focus them on the mechanics instead.