PADI not teaching dive tables anymore?

[rhwestfall]

I think the problem is that, for a lot of people, the mechanics of table use are sufficiently complicated that that's where they focus.

That is why the Wheel was so awesome (NAUI even developed one, though not ML)! My daughter is dyslexic. The tables are a challenge, though she can describe what is going on to the human body (she is 11). The Wheel and the NAUI version are a simple tool for her (as will be a PDC).

 

[supergaijin]

It seems to me that there are other things that could be streamlined for a longer deco theory discussion.

Care to give some examples?

Are you seriously trying to convince me that dropping table training is:

a) leaving students with a better understanding of the practical ramifications of the theory, and how it applies to real world diving? The tables are the interface between the theory and what it actually means to divers...

'Real world' diving is done most often using computers- not tables. In my 7 years as a PADI DM/Instr, I am yet to see someone plan and then commit to a dive using the RDP or Wheel. Where computers are freely accessible, people rent. In many SE Asian countries, they just wing it with the dive guide's computer.... (another thread?) I have had people trying to work out their (computer dive) profile using a table after a dive and then come to me scratching their head. An explanation of U-shape vs mulit-level profiles usually sees the table disappear in to the back of a wet smelly dive bag.

b) not taking away the best tool you have (in the testing phase) of being 100% sure that students are "getting it"?

The students 'get it' for the exam. Sometimes not even 100%, but enough to pass 5 or 6 multichoice questions. Decompression theory and the teaching of, is a lot more involved than showing people how to trace their fingers a long a line of numbers, and then 'finding the R.A.T.'

An extraordinary amount of time was/is wasted IMO, on teaching the physical mechanics of the RDP as opposed to deco theory.

 

[ScottyK]

I think you can do a MUCH better job of conveying the ideas to students, by showing them the output of a program like GAP, that plots saturations in various compartments and how it changes as you go through your ascent, than you can by putting them through table-use exercises that are likely to distract them from the concepts and focus them on the mechanics instead.

Is this written into the PADI coursework to replace tables? Was anything specifically added to the official coursework to make up for the table training being removed? Something that I can look at if I buy the OW course materials?

That GAP program sounds great in theory, but is every PADI instuctor using it?

Not trying to be facetious. I was certified 16 years ago, and am not current as to what new students are being taught. I was happy with the PADI course as presented to me in 1997. If I'm coming across as overly dogmatic, it's because my kids are involved.

I was told that tables were removed, but have not gotten a defineable answer as to what, if anything, it was replaced with. Is it up to the individual instructor?

 

[Scott]

I was told that tables were removed, but have not gotten a defineable answer as to what, if anything, it was replaced with.Is it up to the individual instructor?

Again they have not been removed, it is up to the instructor or facility.
Standards tell us what we can use
From the Instructor manual

Equipment
Standard Diver Equipment
Make sure divers have, at a minimum:
<snip>
10. Dive computer or RDP (eRDPML or Table)

Could we use a program such as GAP or V-planner to help them understand deco theory? Yes

 

[ScottyK]

Care to give some examples?



'Real world' diving is done most often using computers- not tables. In my 7 years as a PADI DM/Instr, I am yet to see someone plan and then commit to a dive using the RDP or Wheel. Where computers are freely accessible, people rent. In many SE Asian countries, they just wing it with the dive guide's computer.... (another thread?) I have had people trying to work out their (computer dive) profile using a table after a dive and then come to me scratching their head. An explanation of U-shape vs mulit-level profiles usually sees the table disappear in to the back of a wet smelly dive bag.



The students 'get it' for the exam. Sometimes not even 100%, but enough to pass 5 or 6 multichoice questions. Decompression theory and the teaching of, is a lot more involved than showing people how to trace their fingers a long a line of numbers, and then 'finding the R.A.T.'

An extraordinary amount of time was/is wasted IMO, on teaching the physical mechanics of the RDP as opposed to deco theory.

See my reply to TSandM. I am not trying to get into an endless, multi tiered discussion with every PADI instructor on this board. I've stated my position on what I valued out of my training. It differs from yours.

I "am" trying to figure out what PADI replaced the table training with, if anything. If it's written into the coursework or up to the individual instructor.

---------- Post added January 28th, 2013 at 05:01 PM ----------

Again they have not been removed, it is up to the instructor or facility.
Standards tell us what we can use
From the Instructor manual

Could we use a program such as GAP or V-planner to help them understand deco theory? Yes

Scott- Thanks. Got this part down earlier. I promise. Assuming that my local shop will "not" teach tables...

Dive computer or RDP (eRDPML or Table)

What does this actually entail other than the obvious (turn computer on, jump off boat, read guage, etc...) ????

 

[supergaijin]

I am not trying to get into an endless, multi tiered discussion with every PADI instructor on this board. I've stated my position on what I valued out of my training. It differs from yours.

But you did say that other things can be 'streamlined'. I'd be interested in your opinion on those 'things'.

I "am" trying to figure out what PADI replaced the table training with, if anything. If it's written into the coursework or up to the individual instructor.

There is a separate manual which comes along with the standard PADI OW manual explaining computer use. This manual (and subsequent Knowledge Reviews) must be completeted in lieu of the old RDP stuff.

Incidentally the RDP info is still in the manual, however the physical RDP slate is not part of the pack any more, and must be purchased separately.

 

[ScottyK]

But you did say that other things can be 'streamlined'. I'd be interested in your opinion on those 'things'.



There is a separate manual which comes along with the standard PADI OW manual explaining computer use. This manual (and subsequent Knowledge Reviews) must be completeted in lieu of the old RDP stuff.

Incidentally the RDP info is still in the manual, however the physical RDP slate is not part of the pack any more, and must be purchased separately.

Thanks for the info on the manual. I want something I can read myself..

As for streamlining I was not getting at what you are assuming.

I know some shops are better than others, and hopefully mine was not the standard experience.

For example, I could have lived without the 45 minute presentaion on what a great value thier scuba packages were. Also got several live "infomercials" during the classes. It was an amazing coincidence that every brand they did not sell was junk.

I was not suggesting that actual dive related coursework be removed.

 

[boulderjohn]

No matter how I parse the data, it keeps coming back to "get the class done faster and get all new divers buying a computer on day one...."

As was said earlier, because of the instructional material added about computer use, there is no time saving. A computer course takes as long as a table course.

I have seen nothing that assures me that the two or so hours of class time saved by removing table training is beneficial for the

No time is saved. The course takes just as long.

Secondly, deco theory is probably the most important thing to drill into a divers head besides "keep breathing". Are you seriously trying to convince me that dropping table training is:

a) leaving students with a better understanding of the practical ramifications of the theory, and how it applies to real world diving? The tables are the interface between the theory and what it actually means to divers...

What is apparently true is that whatever deco theory you learned was taught at the same time that you were taught the tables, and you don't seem to realize that deco theory and the tables are two different things. As was said earlier, the entire book Deco for Divers is about decompression theory, and it never teaches tables. Bruce Weinke's Technical Diving in Depth goes into deco theory to a depth beyond the ken of mere mortals, and it never mentions tables. If you have never seen deco theory taught without tables, you may not be able to imagine that it can be done. but it can not only be done, it can be done MUCH BETTER without having to deal with the details of table usage.

I think the problem is that, for a lot of people, the mechanics of table use are sufficiently complicated that that's where they focus. I remember, when I took OW, I was fascinated by the patterns I saw in the numbers, and I asked questions about them. Nobody else in the class had even noticed them, because they were all too busy remembering which row and column, and which side of the chart to use.

I think you can do a MUCH better job of conveying the ideas to students, by showing them the output of a program like GAP, that plots saturations in various compartments and how it changes as you go through your ascent, than you can by putting them through table-use exercises that are likely to distract them from the concepts and focus them on the mechanics instead.

Yes--such a process works MUCH better.

Is this written into the PADI coursework to replace tables? Was anything specifically added to the official coursework to make up for the table training being removed? Something that I can look at if I buy the OW course materials?

The course contains an entire additional book with knowledge reviews replacing those in modules 4 and 5. There is an excellent simulator that shows how a computer reacts to a diver during a variety of dive experiences.

That GAP program sounds great in theory, but is every PADI instuctor using it?

They don't have to. The simulater described above does all that and more.

Not trying to be facetious. I was certified 16 years ago, and am not current as to what new students are being taught.

but not knowing anything about it does not stop you from raging vehemently against it.

I was told that tables were removed, but have not gotten a defineable answer as to what, if anything, it was replaced with. Is it up to the individual instructor?

No, it is not up to the individual instructor. There is a defined curriculum and an exam.

Stop and relax for a minute. The read through the thread from the beginning and see how many times people told you the answer to this question before you asked it.

 

[ScottyK]

John-- Again, thanks for taking the time to answer, although I think the term "raging" is a bit much.

I've gone out of my way to be polite to all who gave serious answers. My reading comprehension skills are fine too thanks, and I have read and reread this thread carefully. I just hung in there asking follow up questions, and trying to get the specifics that came later on in the conversation. Now I can pick up the materials that were referenced and read them myself...

 

[261311]

I can't say for sure that PADI courses don't teach dive tables because I'm only on course module 2/5 in training but I will say I still received a table and a full book on how to use it as well. Whether or not my PADI instructor teaches me this I probably will run through quickly with him to make sure I understand it and I feel learning this will never "hurt" me given computers can sometimes fail without a diver noticing immediately. I want to be able to approximate with plenty of safe time to return to the surface (frankly I know when gear stops working it's time to surface anyways but added knowledge and the ability to plan a dive will never hurt).