PADI Inadequacies

[GreenDiverDown]

Stop it...you guys are killing me!

 

[ScubaDon]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...



As for the training at altitude thing that you mentioned....what a bunch of BULL$H!T. That's like taking a diver to a quarry that's 60 degrees and forcing them to make dives in a 2.5mil shorty. IT's just wrong...if you're at altitude...teach the students to dive at altitude. IF you're in a cold quarry teach them how to dive with the proper exposure protection. I don't understand how this should even be an issue

.

The altitude issue happened after one of our dives at 6000 ft and a trip home that took us over an 8000 ft pass, they told us to just fill out our logs like they taught us, nothing about altitude because that was another class. As for exposure protection we didn't even get into a wet suit until we made a couple of dives later on our own. We were left to ask other divers to help us out as to how much weight we needed, we had no idea because we had never talked about it in class for more than 5 min.

Oh well life goes on, I will certainly not let this affect my diving in the future other than I will make sure that I look into the classes better and depending on how PADI responds I may or may not go back. I am planning on doing my advanced OW through the dive shop where my son is currently taking his OW, I have already checked to make sure his instructor will teach that class because I have a really good rapport with him and I like the way he teaches. I like the dive shop he works with and have already bought some things from them and will most likely buy most of my sons stuff there as well.

 

[ScubaDon]

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
get on with learning to dive. I hope your new shop will provide you with quality training and introduce you to some new friends.

SA

Exactly what I am trying to do by going to a different LDS. I seriously love this sport but it has become painfully aware that I need TONS more experience and instruction. This thread was started because I felt like I had been let down by the dive shop I took my training through. It was obviously also a problem with the instructor, which by the way changed at almost every class. We were even told to not put down an individual instructors name but to put down the name of the dive shop on the paper work we filled out.

As for talking to the dive shop, we did that. SMKChef and I both talked to them after a particulary bad classs in which we spent only 15 min in the pool. smkchef got a whopping 10% off of a dive log binder. Needless to say it would be useless to pursue that matter any further with them.:bonk:

 

[GreenDiverDown]

ScubaDon, answer as many of these questions as you can and I might be able to give you some ammo for your letter.

1. Did you ascend to 6000 ft. or do you live at that elevation?
2. Did the instructor discuss actual and theoretical depths?
3. How deep did you go? (It should be in your log book) Actual depth, please.
4. Were you using a computer? If so, did your instructor show you how to set it for altitude?
5. Were you using a depth gauge? Was it a Bourdon tube or capillary gauge?
6. Did your instructor use an ascent and descent line?
7. Did your instructor make mention of the need for a 30 foot per minute ascent rate in the pre-dive brief?
8. When you all logged your dives and calculated your pressure groups did you use a theoretical depth at altitude chart?
9. What was the water temp? What type of exposure protection did you use?
10. Did you do all of your OW cert dives at this altitude? How many dives did you do each day?

SA

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Lots of questions about PADI standards throughout this thread, so I'll post some quotes from the digital version of the PADI Instructor Manual which includes the most recent updates available via the web.

All questions are paraphrased
How long does a PADI Open Water training dive need to be?

From General Standards and Procedures page 10:
4. For training purposes,an open water dive is a dive during which a
student diver spends the majority of time at a depth of at least 5 metres/
15 feet and:
a.breathes at least 1400 litres or 50 cubic feet of compressed gas.
OR
b.remains submerged for at least 20 minutes.

If conducting an Open Water Diver Course at altitude, what special requirements are there?

From General Standards and Procedures page 25, section on frequently asked questions:
Use theoretical depths. This meets the intent of minimizing
decompression risk. At altitude, maximum actual depths con-
vert to theoretical depths that are beyond training dive stan-
dards.
Regarding the minimum depth requirement for skill evalua-
tions,use the actual depth – 5 metres//15 feet.

From Open Water Diver Course Instructor Guide page 3-43:
2. You need special training for altitude diving.
[Outline specific course procedures for diving at
altitude if open water dives will take place above
300 metres/1000 feet and promote upcoming
Altitude Diver specialty courses.]

NOTE: an IDC is the course which prepares candidates to sit the IE (Instructor Exam). A candidate must pass an IE in order to become an instructor.
How many dives must an person have to become a PADI instructor? Any requirements on how long they must have been diving?

From General Standards and Procedures page 33:
{In order to attend an IDC the candidate must:}
4.Have been a certified diver for at least six months and have completed
and logged at least 60 dives showing experience in night diving,deep
diving and underwater navigation (as documented in the individual ’s log
book.)
Note:To attend an Instructor Examination (IE),the instructor candidate must have at
least 100 logged dives (exceptions may include PADI 5 Star Career Development
Center candidates.)

You can draw your own conclusions.

 

[ScubaDon]

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
ScubaDon, answer as many of these questions as you can and I might be able to give you some ammo for your letter.

1. Did you ascend to 6000 ft. or do you live at that elevation?

We went to that altitude, we actually live at approximately 4500 ft.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...

2. Did the instructor discuss actual and theoretical depths?

Only actual. The only thing he said about diving at altitude was that there were special conditions about that if you dove above 1000 ft. And you had to have a different class for that.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
3. How deep did you go? (It should be in your log book) Actual depth, please.
[/B]

Actual depth on all dives were between 21-24 feet.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
4. Were you using a computer? If so, did your instructor show you how to set it for altitude?
[/B]

Computers were never even discussed in class, let alone while we were diving.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
5. Were you using a depth gauge? Was it a Bourdon tube or capillary gauge?
[/B]

Yes it was a depth gauge, not sure what type, it was Scuba Pro.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
6. Did your instructor use an ascent and descent line?
[/B]

Twice with twice without. He basically told us to use it if we didn't feel comfortable or had trouble equalizing.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
7. Did your instructor make mention of the need for a 30 foot per minute ascent rate in the pre-dive brief?
[/B]

In the pre-dive brief, No. In class, yes.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
8. When you all logged your dives and calculated your pressure groups did you use a theoretical depth at altitude chart?
[/B]

No. I had done some reading on my own on one of the local web pages about dives here in Utah and it mentioned about using that table. The chart was never discussed in class or at the OW dives. So in answer to the question no we did not calculate our pressure group using the altitude chart.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
9. What was the water temp? What type of exposure protection did you use?
[/B]

Dives were done at the Homestead crater and water temp is 95-98 deg. No exposure protection used.

Stephen Ash once bubbled...
10. Did you do all of your OW cert dives at this altitude? How many dives did you do each day?
[/B]

Yes we did do all of the dives at that altitude, 4 in all. 2 the first day, a drive home 45 min over 8000 ft. pass. Back the next day for 2 more dives and back home the same way.

SA [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[GreenDiverDown]

O.K.

I'm going to give this a go...but I don't dive at altitude so I might be a little rusty. (All of you altitude divers feel free to correct me.)

PADI’s standards are a bit vague when it comes to teaching OW at altitude. I have looked through the S and P and have only found the same reference as Drew quoted. The only requirement is that the instructor must use theoretical depths. I’ll try to translate. PADI requires that the maximum depth for dives 1 and 2 be 40 feet. The maximum depth for dives 3 and 4 is 60 feet. (In this case we are not considering the different requirements used when teaching children.) Now, at altitude, the instructor must limit his depths to theoretical depths. So, at 6000 feet the max depth for dives 1 and 2 is 40 feet theoretical which translates to 30 feet actual. Dives 3 and 4 may not exceed 60 feet theoretical which is 40 feet actual at your altitude. *

Your instructor maxed your dives at 21 to 24 feet actual which is 37 feet theoretical and therefore remained within PADI standards.

Now, here is a catch. A Bourdon tube gauge at altitude will read shallower than the actual depth. If this is the type of gauge you were using then at 6000 feet you would have to add about 7 feet to what your gauge is showing to get your actual depth (assuming that it was an unadjustable gauge). That would put you at 28 to 31 feet actual which is 37 to 50 feet theoretical. So, if you were using a Bourdon tube gauge and did not add the 7 feet then dives 1 and 2 possibly could have been 50 feet theoretical. If this was the case then he was out of standards.

On the other hand, if your gauge was a capillary gauge then it would have directly read the theoretical depth and conversion would not be necessary. Obviously, in that case your instructor would have been well within PADI’s max depth standard.

If I were you I wouldn’t ding your instructor on this particular point. Even in the worse case scenario he was pretty close to the required depth limits...certainly nothing that PADI would spank him for.

More to come…

* I am using PADI’s Theoretical Depth at Altitude Table for all calculations.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Let’s look at this from another angle…

According to PADI’s S and P students must log each dive and the instructor must sign it. Inherent in logging a dive is calculating pressure groups. It is interesting to note that PADI’s S and P do not emphasize this necessity in the open water portion of the course. In fact, no where could I find a requirement for the instructor to calculate pressure groups with the students either in pre-dive planning or in post-dive debriefing. (Can anyone else find it? Drew?) This, of course, is required in the knowledge development or classroom portion of the course. But it simply isn’t mentioned in the open water segments. However, because it is part of the dive logging process and a fundamental concept that is covered in class I guess we can assume that it is required of an instructor to do this.

Here’s where it gets good…

You ascended 1500 feet to get to your dive site. That would make you a pressure group D (2 groups for every 1000 feet…don’t forget to round up to the nearest 1000 foot.) Assuming that it took an hour for your class to set up gear and the instructor to brief the skills, you would be entering the water as a pressure group B. You then do a dive to forty feet theoretical for 15minutes and exit the water as a pressure group G. (Don’t get too picky on me here…I’m using the PADI wheel in very poor lighting!)

The point is this; your instructor is required to sign your log and it is implied (at least IMO) that he verify that you have calculated your pressure groups correctly. If you did not take into account the ascent to altitude in calculating your pressure group and if you did not use theoretical depths then, strictly speaking, you could make a case that your instructor was out of standards.

Whether or not this is worth writing to PADI about is up to you. It was only a 1500 foot altitude change and your dives were relatively shallow and very short. You were not put in any danger. Some might say that the 1500 ft ascent is insignificant and that by the time a class is in the water they are almost back to square one. In your case you started as a group B. Not a real big deal if you are staying well within the limits as your instructor did. (It might even seem less of a deal to your instructor if he has a different idea of your starting altitude.) To put things in perspective, here in Phoenix one of our lakes nearby is about 1600 feet and we don’t do altitude calculations. (Though it is probably only a 600 foot change depending on where one lives.)

There is quite a bit to altitude diving and if I was teaching in your neighborhood I would incorporate the altitude specialty into the OW class and maybe charge a little more. But if you are looking for whether or not your instructor was out of standards…to a degree worth complaining about to PADI…well, probably not..

SA

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Let me know when you are ready.

This next one is good! I think its your most reasonable complaint to go to PADI with.

SA

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Another approach…

According to the S and P your instructor is required to give a pre-dive briefing and planning session before each dive. If a student is doing his or her OW cert dives in Coz, you would expect the instructor to brief about current. If the dives are going to be shore dives, you would expect a briefing on surf or if from a boat, a briefing on boat diving. So, I would think that a dive at 6000 feet…even if you live at 4500 feet…would require a brief on altitude diving. In fact I can’t imagine what kind of a pre-dive briefing your instructor could give without including this most relevant information. It is not enough to just present the skills that will soon be done in the water. If your instructor didn’t include things like; the need for a slower ascent rate, how to interpret your depth gauge, how to use theoretical depths when planning your dive with the wheel or table, or how to calculate new, altitude dependant, maximum allowable depths, then he was out of standard.

This is probably your best founded complaint to send to PADI…well, at least with regards to the altitude thing. It is the intent of the standard …speaking again of the pre-dive briefing and planning requirement…that your instructor share with you information that is important to dive safely in that particular environment. He must assume that after you are certified you will continue to dive in conditions with which you have been trained. You were trained at 6000 feet…he better have taught you how to do that safely.

SA