PADI getting sued over Insurance Program

[Thalassamania]

Drop the insurance requirement, make both full liability as well as defense only insurance optional and available.

 

[Wookie]

Drop the insurance requirement, make both full liability as well as defense only insurance optional and available.

With the types of lawsuits that get filed in the United States today, "shotgun" lawsuits (that is, suing anyone even remotely associated with the incident), PADI is really protecting themselves by making each instructor/DM carry liability insurance. After all, the surviving spouse sues the buddy, the boat, the instructor, the shop, and the certifying agency. The buddy has no money, he is a diver . I assure you the boat has no money, the bank owns it. The instructor has no money, he is a dive instructor. The dive shop is deep in debt, so all that's left is the certifying agency. The boat, shop, and instructor have liability insurance because the certifying agency requires it, so it dilutes their exposure.

The big lie is that the certifying agencies all tell us that we have to have to have liability insurance to protect ourselves. Horse pucky! We are only protecting the certifying agency with all of this liability insurance. Anyone in their right mind who has assets to protect knows full well how to protect them. If the surviving spouse's lawyer sees that there are no assets to go after, I can assure you, there would be far fewer lawsuits filed in the dive industry. Diving liability insurance is the biggest scam in the dive industry, and since the certifying agencies require it for us to be in teaching status, we all have to contribute to the protection of the certifying agency. And since we are all protecting the certifying agency, the certifying agency can turn out half-assed instructors by the bushel-full. But that's a topic for another thread.

Edit: I've only been sued once. I was sued for exactly the limit of my liability insurance. My lawyers chose to settle. For exactly the limit of my liability insurance.

 

[Thalassamania]

Frank, I do agree. As I see it instructional liability insurance only serves to create a deep pocket other than the agencies. I agree whole-heatedly that this is one of the root causes of the certifying agencies being able to, "turn out half-assed instructors by the bushel-full."

 

[ReefHound]

If you followed PADI standards then it is in PADI's own interests for you to be cleared in the suit. If you didn't follow standards, then it is in their interests that you take the fall and you will get thrown under the bus.

 

[Thalassamania]

If you followed PADI standards then it is in PADI's own interests for you to be cleared in the suit. If you didn't follow standards, then it is in their interests that you take the fall and you will get thrown under the bus.

Not necessarily, a good defense is expensive and if (as it appears) PADI does not have the money in the bank to cover the defense (up to the first $300K) then I would guess it would be in their interest to decide that you were outside of standards and that therefore they have no obligation to you. And you know something? With standards that are as detailed and exact as PADI's, that set both a top and a bottom, I'm sure that I could find a way to show that almost every course is "outside of standards" in at least a minor way.

 

[Peter Guy]

As I see it instructional liability insurance only serves to create a deep pocket other than the agencies.

What a crock!

Thal, are you telling me that you, as an instructor, will never, can never, make a mistake which results in an injury? That you are always so perfect that never, ever can something you do injure someone else? If so, then no, you don't need liability insurance.

But, for the rest of us who are not always perfect, we need insurance to help protect our assets in those rare cases where we might, just might, make a mistake which results in an injury to someone.

I happen to know lots of instructors who have significant assets and need liability insurance to protect those assets just in case the unthinkable happens.

Instructor liability insurance may protect my agency -- but it also protects me, my wife and my lifestyle.

 

[Thalassamania]

What a crock!

Thal, are you telling me that you, as an instructor, will never, can never, make a mistake which results in an injury? That you are always so perfect that never, ever can something you do injure someone else? If so, then no, you don't need liability insurance.

But, for the rest of us who are not always perfect, we need insurance to help protect our assets in those rare cases where we might, just might, make a mistake which results in an injury to someone.

I happen to know lots of instructors who have significant assets and need liability insurance to protect those assets just in case the unthinkable happens.

Instructor liability insurance may protect my agency -- but it also protects me, my wife and my lifestyle.

A half century of history would say that is is rather unlikely. However, what I am actually saying is that I will never commit an act that crosses the line from the risks that are assumed by the student into the are of gross negligence that is not. If I do, then I deserve what I get. The insurance that I feel that I need (and everyone is different) is insurance that would pay for my defense costs were the unthinkable to happen. I feel that given the level of supervision that I provide and the unimpeachable talent that went into designing the program was well the the more than a half century of experience with the program that I can, with no real risk, get rid of what comes down to being not liability insurance but gross negligence insurance that serves no real function other than to enrich the agencies and make me a deep pocketed target. If you feel differently, then you should buy different coverage, I have no problem with that, I just want the freedom to buy what I need rather than being forced to pay for what you think that you need.

 

[SC_Hoaty]

A half century of history would say that is is rather unlikely.

Do you apply this logic to your auto liability or house fire insurance also?

The low probability of experiencing a loss, paired with the potential high cost of the loss, is what makes insurance affordable.

If the probability of loss is low, and the potential loss is low, then only a fool would pay to insure against the loss.

If the probability of loss were high, then the premiums would have to reflect that.

 

[Thalassamania]

Do you apply this logic to your auto liability or house fire insurance also?

Neither involve gross negligence over which you have control. But even so, insurance is cheaper for people who have never had an auto claim, and the probability of a fire claim is much lower for, say a stucco house with a tile roof and a sprinkler system.

The low probability of experiencing a loss, paired with the potential high cost of the loss, is what makes insurance affordable.

If the probability of loss is low, and the potential loss is low, then only a fool would pay to insure against the loss.

If the probability of loss were high, then the premiums would have to reflect that.

Then since you percieve the probably of a problem in your class as being high enough that you need protection from loss, you should be able to buy some. I just don't see why I should be required to help offset your premiums when I do not perceive that I am contributing to the risk in the same way that you are.

 

[ItsBruce]

I'm seeing what I think is a lot of misinformation here.

1. I doubt that any insurance policy would say that it does not cover liability if it arises because an instructor did not follow the standards. The whole concept of liability insurance is that it covers liability for negligence, which by definition entails not following the standards.

2. Someone suggested that PADI does not have the money to cover the SIR on liability policies. Is there any actual evidence of this?

3. Re defense only insurance ... I'm not offering insurance, but, if a large group of DMs or instructors approached me and offered me a sufficient yearly retainer to be available to act as defense counsel, at say $10 per hour, should any of them be sued as the result of a diving injury, I would strongly consider it. (The $10 would be so the client would have a "dog in the fight" should there be litigation.) Otherwise, the PADI program seems to be pretty competitive without having ever demonstrated an inability to actually cover the SIR.

4. Are there any DMs, Instructors or Shop Owners, who are insured under the PADI program who would be willing to send me copies of all of their insuring documents so I can analyze them?