PADI Deep Diver Standards

[TheHobster]

Good point. I could see the argument for not taking a student to 130', even in a deep diver course. However, as you've indicated, 4 x 61' feels subpar. That's why I like the guidelines you listed. I think they are good, but an instructor doesn't have to follow the guidelines, just the standards. This is where asking questions and shopping around is critical if you're going to take the course.

At Gilboa and Mermet we can follow the PADI recommendations easily - in fact last year we did dive #3, planned on 115' and actually hit 112' - on the first dive (dive 2 of class) did the 60-80, from the deep dock do the nav and then along the wall; dive 2 (3 of class) to the above mentioned 112'; & dive 3 (4 of class) to 75-80 to the tubes and fiddling around there and the wall

unlike some folks, we also stayed at depth. Many like to "touch" the goal depth then ascend for warmth - I had a guy in a DS and his wife the schoolteacher in a WS and the math teacher will not shirk procedures! Didn't get cold, or wouldn't lket me know she was cold

At Mermet, Bob will run an excellent Deep course as there are so many places to go there at those depths

as an instructor, I hate the driving 2.5+ hours, but I bring the camper and do it when we have enough people to tell lies around the fire at night - would have loved to teach deep when I was in Grand Turk - what a wall dive they have

 

[MikeFerrara]

So I'll add my $0.02 here...

For my one required deep dive for AOW, my instructor used the local quarry which reached a depth of 56' or something like that... now the secret in making it deeper than 60' or more to be counted as a deep dive was the fact it was cold water and so you had to add 10' to the depth for calculating NDL and RNT.

Oh yes...the infamous Blue Springs AOW (not really) deep dive. Some local shops and instructors have been doing it for years and years. It's a blatant standards violation and I can't believe that PADI hasn't heard about it by now.

 

[MikeFerrara]

My thoughts exactly.

I have a very hard time understanding, how some people in here can advocate mandadory deep dive experience PRIOR to taking a Deep Dive Speciality. That makes absolutely no sense at all to me, because essentially it says "Do something that you're not extensively trained for, before we're taking you through a course that teaches you how to do it (properly)".

I do realize that PADI bashing is a popular pasttime, but for once it should take the back seat.

I think you missed the point some are trying to make. The point is that it doesn't make any sense to go deep if you haven't yet learned to dive well at any depth. Many of these "deep diving" classes amount to kneeling on the bottom below 60 ft rather than above 60 ft.

The problems with the course in question seem pretty clear. To name just a few, there are no skill/technique related preformance requirements. Wallowing in the bottom is just fine and is, in fact, required by many instructors. No gas management is taught. The only mode of redundancy that's taught is the STUPID hang bottle thing.

 

[TheHobster]

Oh yes...the infamous Blue Springs AOW (not really) deep dive. Some local shops and instructors have been doing it for years and years. It's a blatant standards violation and I can't believe that PADI hasn't heard about it by now.

PADI has, but does noy have specific instructors and to be honest, did it myself as one guage read 60' - all others read 57 but one said 60

now the Deep class has skill requirrements - navigation, pressure demonstrations, I do Air consumption, I don't use a hang bottle I bring a stage bottle w/me, and I have a 100cf steel, with H valve to show that deep should have redundancy and todays situation at Gilboa shows why - also, since the places we go are a wall and have places to see things that are deep we do not sit in the muck and look around

After that I am thinking of having them have regs checked by shop before class to assure we are properly maintained and shouldn't have any problems

 

[Steve R]

PADI has, but does noy have specific instructors and to be honest, did it myself as one guage read 60' - all others read 57 but one said 60

now the Deep class has skill requirrements - navigation, pressure demonstrations, I do Air consumption, I don't use a hang bottle I bring a stage bottle w/me, and I have a 100cf steel, with H valve to show that deep should have redundancy and todays situation at Gilboa shows why - also, since the places we go are a wall and have places to see things that are deep we do not sit in the muck and look around

After that I am thinking of having them have regs checked by shop before class to assure we are properly maintained and shouldn't have any problems

lol, if the Gilboa incident teaches anyone here anything, it's that people don't have it going on properly at 40ft, so why even think about 100ft? It has diddley to do with bringing more gas. You plan for the gas you have, and if it don't work, you don't dive, and slapping on spare-airs and hanging bottles off spanky new divers won't work either. As Mike says, tossing a hang-tank at 15ft is about as bone-headed a plan as it gets, but does it surprise anyone?

At any rate, it's the same problem on course or off, folks are in way over their head, and Padi encourages and helps put them there, with little regard for common diving sense. That's why a 12 dive wonder has no reason to be at 100ft, ever.

The Padi class has no real requirements if what I have seen can be said to have covered the standards to Padi's satisfaction. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I didn't ask, nor do I really care anymore.

So the excuse Padi gives for that Spring dive to 57ft is that they can't nail down who's doing it? lol...OK. I guess you can't though, if you never try.

You could probably send them a signed confession with an excuse, and they'd be diving and doing it again next weekend. Heck, they'd be doing it with Padi's approval at that point MTL.

regards

 

[MikeFerrara]

PADI has, but does noy have specific instructors and to be honest, did it myself as one guage read 60' - all others read 57 but one said 60

Do what you think best. LOL I don't dive Blue Springs very much any more and I haven't been there for a very long time but I don't remember abything below 56 ft...measured with my guage of course.

now the Deep class has skill requirrements - navigation, pressure demonstrations, I do Air consumption, I don't use a hang bottle I bring a stage bottle w/me, and I have a 100cf steel, with H valve to show that deep should have redundancy and todays situation at Gilboa shows why - also, since the places we go are a wall and have places to see things that are deep we do not sit in the muck and look around

After that I am thinking of having them have regs checked by shop before class to assure we are properly maintained and shouldn't have any problems

The skills I'm more concerned with are actual diving skills. Navigation is great but aside from that I'm talking about buoyancy control, propulsion techniques, buddy skills (unless we're talking about solo diving) and problem management.

From your posts here and in the instructors forum I get the impression that you are serious about doing a good job of teaching your students and that you are thinking. Please don't take anything I have to say about agency standards as a peronal ding. I taught that class myself a few times and I think that I taght a pretty good class. I just don't think much of the standards I had to work with.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Just saw the thread concerning the latest Gilboa accident.

Fact is that I have personally witnessed many of these incidents. Some resulted in injury and some didn't but I have too much experience searching for missing divers and directing traffic for ambulances.

None of the posts mentioned free flows but that's what usually happens.

Hobbster,
Having the shop check the regs isn't going to do CRAP. Regs are sometimes going to free flow in deep cold water. The answer is to have divers comfortable manageing a free flow midwater. Nobodies life should ever be dependant on the function of a single reg. This incident is probably just another of the many examples of exactly what we're talking about...no sense going deep if you aren't any good shallow.

edit: I take that back. The last news article does mention free flows and that's the usual start of things...par for the course and the same old same old.

This has happened far too many times for my stomach. Who needs this ****? **** the agencies that teach and encourage this nonsense. If this is what diving has to be then **** diving too.

I feel sorry for Mike (owner of Golboa). He tries to run a good place and he has way too many incidents like this to go to sleep with every night.

 

[in_cavediver]

As I read parts of this thread and after hearing about Gilboa (local site to me), I wonder if any of this will really sink in?

The fact is 100ft at Gilboa is the same danger as 100ft in clear tropical water. Both place you a great distance from the surface with increased air consumption and narcosis. You may be more likely to have a malfunction of dive gear such as a free flow or stuck inflator in the cold quarry water but neither should be a threat to your safety. And yet, we see the same results over and over - inexpierence leading to panic which leads to injury or death.

Personally, I am sick of seeing/hearing about ambulances taking divers away who didn't understand the risks.

My thoughts and prayers go to the divers families and to those at the quarry who were involved in the incident. May we, as fellow divers, learn from the mistakes made such that this need not happen again.

 

[Karibelle]

So the excuse Padi gives for that Spring dive to 57ft is that they can't nail down who's doing it? lol...OK. I guess you can't though, if you never try.

PADI is not a person who goes out in the scuba police uniform, you know. I appreciate the fact that the agency does not respond to rumours, but rather initiates QA investigations when a report is received. A "report" would include the name of an individual and specifics of a standards violation.

I asked you once before, and you didn't respond: what agency do you teach through?

kari

 

[Steve R]

PADI is not a person who goes out in the scuba police uniform, you know. I appreciate the fact that the agency does not respond to rumours, but rather initiates QA investigations when a report is received. A "report" would include the name of an individual and specifics of a standards violation.

I asked you once before, and you didn't respond: what agency do you teach through?

kari

Must have missed it, sorry. I don't really hang on every word here, I'm sure you understand.

I used to teach for Padi-licious, but after way too many dealings with them I decided they really weren't doing much for diver training that I see as worthy at all. And they certainly never showed up with the right decisions on the issues I've dealt with them on, and I do mean never. Padi knows exactly what they are doing and are masters at what they do, however, they couldn't really care a less about anything else.

So of course I've chatted with Padi QA about specifics I don't know how many times. They don't seem to have the same idea as myself and others do about their reckless abandon. It's not a point of them not knowing the dives, shop, instructor, student, date, course, yada yada, I pretty much draw them a map to the problems, both specific and in general, as many here have.

Will any of this sink in to those that fund their nonense? I doubt it, but I remain hopeful. You need to appreciate that Padi doesn't really respond to anything at all.

Their hands are washed clean by the way they write their standards, so the blame is shifted onto the Instuctors, who themselves don't know any better because they were in turn taught by the same broken system by the same broken people before them. Perfectly circular in appearance, right down the bowl.

Oh well. :439: