PADI Cavern Diver Course Changes

[PerroneFord]

However, isn't the real problem that Ginnie will only allow singles?

I dive doubles in Ginnie all the time. Just not in Devils...

 

[H2Andy]

hehehe

true

 

[Spratman]

Thanks for elaborating on that. Pez Diablo and I talked about the PADI Intro class. I begged off because of time and didn't want a PADI cert. Plus I didn't want it from a fledgling program.

I'm hoping to take my Intro class with King Ralph! I've just finished my NAUI Intro to Tech to start ramping up for the Intro class.

There is still something to the rites of passage...

 

[Meng_Tze]

Hmm,
nothing about finning techniques?

This is from their website on cavern dive specialty:

You'll also cover the following:

* Planning, organization, techniques, problems and hazards of cavern diving.
* Special equipment use, such as lights, guidelines, reels and redundant breathing systems.
* Proper body position, buoyancy control, air management and emergency procedures.
* Cavern diving hazards such as silting, line problems, disorientation and emergencies.

Maybe ist in there somewhere, I dunno.

 

[Thalassamania]

We are. I am not a caveman, but I've lots of friends who are and they've done a damn good job taking care of their own to date. I fear that this will not help anything except PADI's bottom line.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Steve,

My speculation about PADI's intentions are just that...speculation. While I discuss cave training I don't do so with the same confidence as I do OW training since I'm not a cave instructor and only a cave diver of limited experience.

I fear that it is not a "step in the right direction" since it exposes more people to the possibility of cave diving without begining to integrate them into the cave community. That, I fear, will ultimately result in more accidents and further degredation of the cave environment.

I didn't start diving until the mig 80's and I didn't get certified until the 90's. Since I didn't go out on my own uncertified, I guess you can say that I entered the diving community first. I was pressured to stay off the bottom and go easy on the environment before I took a class where they forced me to plant myself. I think that was lost to some extent with the widespread commercial availability of certification, though, that certainly happened long before I came on the sceen. A loss of mentorship?

I met technical divers first and then saught technical training and the same with cave diving. In the fairly short time that I've been cave diving things have changed. I now see divers in caves sitting on the bottom taking pictures failing to yield to exiting divers and lots of face and hand prints in the silt nexct to jumps. On one of my last dives in Peacock the area around the jump from the peanut line to the crossover tunnel was completely silted out. After our dive a guy came up and opoligized for the mess that his group made which was nice but why did it happen? The tunnel is big enough to fly a 747 through. Reefs and caves just like forest trails are going to show some wear with use but what's comming in future? We do have over used/abused reefs dispite the industries attempts to deny that divers are responsible and local OW sites are barely worth messing with on summer weekends. Will the caves suffer the same fate?Will the divers who saw them before want to go back or will they become just additional assets of the training agencies? The original cave training agencies have traditionally had a policy of not actively promoting cave diving but some of the instructor members certainly promote it. I don't have the right to deny any one access to the caves any more than I do to deny access to the local state forest but the thought of what could happen when cave training is available and advertised at every corner dive shop worries me. And yes that's a bit selfish. I don't have any nice OW sites (I used to but they're not nice anymore) but I do have some fairly untouched caves that may not stay that way. I think there are ways to keep things nice and still get lots of divers the chance to see it but I fear that those may not be the ways that will be followed. I fear that the agencies best equiped to provide access to large numbers of divers are the ones who give only lip service to conservation issues in their control...like diving skills.

There are already plenty of groups and government agencies that would deny us access. I do feel that we need to avoid giving their arguement more weight by avoiding accidents and environmental damage. Many of the Florida systems and most of the "non-river" Missouri systems are already off limits.

What is a cave diver without a cave. LOL or COL as you please.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hmm,
nothing about finning techniques?

This is from their website on cavern dive specialty:

You'll also cover the following:

* Planning, organization, techniques, problems and hazards of cavern diving.
* Special equipment use, such as lights, guidelines, reels and redundant breathing systems.
* Proper body position, buoyancy control, air management and emergency procedures.
* Cavern diving hazards such as silting, line problems, disorientation and emergencies.

Maybe ist in there somewhere, I dunno.

The PADI course requires the instructor to demonstrate three finning techniques which is similar to what other agencies require although I can't compare the actual student performance requirements.

You can't go by what the web site says. Rather you have to see the actual standards and instructor outline which is not made public by some agencies.

 

[Dive-aholic]

From what I understand, Karl Shreeves (technical person for PADI) is working on a DSAT cave course. I heard this from a CD that I'm pretty sure doesn't talk out her *****. The changes to the PADI cavern course only confirm (for me anyway) Shreeves intent. PADI does come out with good course materials, so that will be an advantage, probably the only one. Unfortunately, I think Mike F. is right, unless DSAT gets involved with NACD and NSS-CDS and works closely with them. I don't see that happening though. It looks like another case of the corporate giant bumping out the mom and pop organization.

Mike, there's only a time limit for full cave if you've completed Apprentice, but not full cave. The Apprentice cert is good for a year. If you don't complete full cave, then you go back to intro level.

 

[Jason B]

I thought NSS-CDS was changing the requirement for the Intro class. If a student was proficient in the use of doubles, they could use them. However, isn't the real problem that Ginnie will only allow singles?

The NSS-CDS did away with Intro to Cave and replaced it with what they call Basic Cave Diver. Doubles are allowed at this level without the need of a special permit (no longer need a provisional apprentice pass).

 

[H2Andy]

they did?

hmmm.... maybe i misunderstood Rick. i've sent him a PM and asked him to comment


[EDIT] i'm sorry, i just realized my mistake. Rick is Vice-President of NACD,
not NAS-CDS

wrong agency