Padi/ Bsac

[Custer]

sheck33 once bubbled...


of course, that is why PADI is as big as they are, PADI gives people what they want, a c-card as fast as possible with the least amount of effort. so sometimes i think we should bash wanna be divers rather than PADI :wacko:

and 2 days obviously does not suffice, that is the whole point.

What is your measure that it "obviously does not suffice"?

Accident statistics? No.

Death statistics? No.

So are you saying anything less than 3 months is inadequate?

2 days sufficed for me, and tens of thousands of others each year.

Doesn't mean more isn't better, it means two days can be sufficient.

 

[divemed06]

sheck33 once bubbled...


of course, that is why PADI is as big as they are, PADI gives people what they want, a c-card as fast as possible with the least amount of effort. so sometimes i think we should bash wanna be divers rather than PADI :wacko:

and 2 days obviously does not suffice, that is the whole point.

I must partially disagree. It all depends on who you are and what your motivations are. There is good and bad in everything. Let's not try to target individuals with generalized, and often unfounded, criticism. S.A.D.

 

[sheck33]

divemed06 once bubbled...


I must partially disagree. It all depends on who you are and what your motivations are. There is good and bad in everything. Let's not try to target individuals with generalized, and often unfounded, criticism. S.A.D.

it is not true for all new divers, i realize that. but for a vast majority it unfortuneately is.

 

[DrSteve]

Custer - I'm afraid I misled you. I meant to imply I had no other option than non-BSAC in my area - all PADI and SSI schools within 25 miles, even within 75 there was only one NAUI school.

I'm sure you are a great guy in person but if you think 2 days is good enough (I forget how long pool sessions are...2h each?) there's no way I would ever dive with you. Everyone, no matter their affiliation, seems to agree (apart from you) that the whole problem is that you *can* get a c-card in 2 days.

Would you let someone pass a driving test after 2 days (sure you would, they deserve it, they did the test and passed), now give them the keys to your car and let them go off on their own. Trouble is, it's often not that person that gets hurt, it's the person they run into. It's not the beginning karate student who gets hurt, it's the instructor who has to deal with lack of control on their part as they land a strike. The list goes on.

 

[sheck33]

Custer once bubbled...


What is your measure that it "obviously does not suffice"?

Accident statistics? No.

Death statistics? No.

So are you saying anything less than 3 months is inadequate?

2 days sufficed for me, and tens of thousands of others each year.

Doesn't mean more isn't better, it means two days can be sufficient.

dont need accident statistics to see that 2 days does not suffice for the majority of new divers. i have been in the red sea, cozumel, grand cayman, jamaica and you can just pick out the got-certified-in-2-days divers, i saw a NAUI class, yes NAUI not PADI, last weekend getting certified, well actually i didnt see the divers, rather the big siltcloud that engulfed them. you need the luck of having a very dedicated instructor like M.F and the willingness of the new diver to put effort into getting certified. the agency is not going to raise the bar, not good for business....:upset:

and if you are wondering how i know it was a NAUI class...i asked when they were doing their surface interval.

 

[divemed06]

sheck33 once bubbled...


it is not true for all new divers, i realize that. but for a vast majority it unfortuneately is.

.....and that is founded where? Would you be able to give us a link to your sources that specifically talks about PADI vs BSAC. Thanks.

 

[sheck33]

divemed06 once bubbled...



.....and that is founded where? Would you be able to give us a link to your sources that specifically talks about PADI vs BSAC. Thanks.

not specifically comparing PADI with BSAC.

where my opinion is founded you ask go dive! look !
my source is having been involved first hand with numerous PADI classes all the way up to assistant instructor. i have also seen first hand a number of TDI classes. i dive 3-6 times a week, i see it every time i am out there, what other sources do you want?

and with all these classes i have always made it a point to not touch the bottom and show good diving form, that was about all i could do not being the certifying instructor....

PS: and that is way i have now stopped being involved as it is a loosing battle, i have better things to do with my time.

 

[Custer]

DrSteve once bubbled...
Custer - I'm afraid I misled you. I meant to imply I had no other option than non-BSAC in my area - all PADI and SSI schools within 25 miles, even within 75 there was only one NAUI school.

The point still stands. The unique BSAC system is very limited in it's territorial scope. If it was clearly superior and in demand, it would be much more widely accepted. I also note that there are few or no domestic locations that accept a BSAC card, and deny a PADI card.

DrSteve once bubbled...
I'm sure you are a great guy in person but if you think 2 days is good enough (I forget how long pool sessions are...2h each?) there's no way I would ever dive with you. Everyone, no matter their affiliation, seems to agree (apart from you) that the whole problem is that you *can* get a c-card in 2 days.

Conversely I could say that if it took 3 months of pool sessions for you to become proficient in what the vast majority of the world's divers do in far less time, I'm sure I wouldn't want to dive with you, either.

Everybody, no matter what their affiliation, tends to look at the current training sylabus as inadequate, while forgetting that a significant portion of them are a product of it. It's just that "back in my day" type snobbery of accomplishment.

As far as diving with me, I've been diving an *average* of 160 dives a year since I was certified, and am an experienced mixed gas and overhead diver. I had over 50 *hours* of cold/dark bottom time in 6 months last year. You probably wouldn't be too-too concerned with my vacation diving capabilities.

DrSteve once bubbled...
Would you let someone pass a driving test after 2 days (sure you would, they deserve it, they did the test and passed), now give them the keys to your car and let them go off on their own. Trouble is, it's often not that person that gets hurt, it's the person they run into. It's not the beginning karate student who gets hurt, it's the instructor who has to deal with lack of control on their part as they land a strike. The list goes on.

But no statistics come close to bearing you out. PADI alone certified two. hundred. thousand. divers last year, and only thirty divers died in the U.S. and Canada, of ALL causes and agencies, in their first year of diving.

This simply proves that whatever practices in place at this time must be sufficiently safe for the average diver.

Optimum? Premium? No. But sufficient.

 

[sheck33]

Custer once bubbled...


<snip>

quote:

'Conversely I could say that if it took 3 months of pool sessions for you to become proficient in what the vast majority of the world's divers do in far less time, I'm sure I wouldn't want to dive with you, either'

the vast majority of divers rushing through the 2 day class are not proficient. and if someone takes months to become proficient you dont dive with them you only dive with the proficient divers that learned fast?

<snip>

quote:

'But no statistics come close to bearing you out. PADI alone certified two. hundred. thousand. divers last year, and only thirty divers died in the U.S. and Canada, of ALL causes and agencies, in their first year of diving.
This simply proves that whatever practices in place at this time must be sufficiently safe for the average diver'

this doesnt prove anything. do your statistics take into account the fact that from the 1000's of divers certified by PADI a great many never dive again after certification? i personally know at least 10 people that havent been in the water since they got certified. how about all the incidents or to use the term 'near accidents' go unreported? or is your definition of sufficiently safe equivalent to 'a diver is a safe diver as long as they dont actually kill themselves?

Optimum? Premium? No. But sufficient.

 

[sheck33]

that last post was a little confusing as to who wrote what.