Padi/ Bsac

[MikeFerrara]

bermudaskink once bubbled...
Gosh! I'll never get any work done today will I??

I did say "consider other expenses" because I didn't want to make a long list - I am not sure why you were loosing money on OW courses. How much were you charging per student? That sucks. The dive center owners I know of are raking it in! They don't sell much in the way of equipment.

Keep in mind that at an inland shop we teach and sell equipment. There aren't any daily boat trips or guided dives. You can't get very much for an OW class. Most shops around here use it as a loss leader to generate a market for their equipment. It's just a cost of sales. Often teaching and selling equipment can be a conflict of interest. I doubt my student buy as much equipment as the students of other shops. That's partly because of the way I teach. My classes also spend 15 hours in the pool where most shops around here do 5 or 6. I keep my classes small and get them plenty of OW bottom time. It's a good class but it's expensive. I think there is a night and day difference between my students an those from some of the other shops. You could literally pick them out UW. While very satisfying it just isn't profitable when your price must be comparable to others but the class is not.

Also consider other issues such as the fact that if you're not at a dive site you don't sell much gas so 90% of the cost od oporating a fill station must be absorbed by OW classes. BTW, try getting on as a dealer with a major equipment manufacturer. In most cases you must be a full service shop. You're forced to provide air even if the market won't justify the expense.

At the volume of gas that we sold in order to get a two year pay back on the capital expendature of the compressor (not including banks or other mixing equipment) I would have had to charge $25.tank for air. Another loss leader that really amounts to part of the cost of sales and nothing more. It's financial pressures like these that reward shops for fast cheap classes and cutting corners

MOST recreational diving IS done while people are on holiday in warm waters. I am talking on global terms here.

In my opinion, it's still better to watch the video in class if you are on holiday or not, unless the students would rather do it in their own time.

I insist that they do it on their own time because I have too much other stuff to say to spend time sitting there while they watch a video.

 

[bermudaskink]

I agree with learn-scuba and Custer about the OW being a ticket to learn. Points have been made that never managed to make it out of my head and onto the page!

Nice one.

 

[bermudaskink]

I am talking about scuba diving as a whole. I respect the fact that there will be dive centers like yours that function differently but in general, my statements apply.

Inland LDS are in the minority.

Back to the video....

I also find that after you've watched the video and stopped it to answer any questions or add your own points at certain intervals you don't need to say much at all. Students get bored of listening to YOUR voice all the time!!

Also, nobody said you couldn't do other stuff (like mark knowledge reviews etc.) while they watch the video.....

 

[DrSteve]

Custer:

PADI's guidlines are obviously within WRSTC standards, just like everybody else, and injury statistics readily available point out that only a small percentage of deaths or injuries occur to the recently certified. A number so small as to be insignificant. I doubt that anyone who works for corporate PADI would appreciate your baseless accusation.

I was not making any baseless accusation. That is a *fact* and was made clear in 1993 to an Advanced BSAC Instructor from NE Essex BSAC branch 54 who was taking the PADI instructor course. Nothing baseless about it. Whether the stats confirm that PAID is as safe as any othe agency is irrelevant. The fact that their goals are profit>fun>safety and not profit=fun=safety is the problem.

 

[sheck33]

bermudaskink once bubbled...
For Sheck 33:

OK - so you have every right not to agree with me, however, I don't think that some instructors do have as much choice as you make out. Also I would like to point out that I am not saying they have excuses to breach standards - just that the quality of teaching gets affected. I am not saying that as a result someone will have an accident in the water becasue of this and that is OK and not their fault.... I am NOT saying that. I am saying that due to the pressures of commercial dive centres there will be some open water students that end up needing a little more experience and help in the water after certification than if they had been trained by someone who had less students to deal with and less hours to work.....I am just talking about small things, like boyancy, mask clearing skills, confidence levels. If they aren't up to scratch I am saying that it could quite possiblty be the dive centre’s fault rather than the instructors themselves or the agency. :doctor:

Instructors may move somewhere to teach thinking that their dive centre is a good one that doesn't put pressure on their instructors but more often than not, they do. In a perfect world it wouldn't happen. But saying that when it does happen, all instructors should throw in the towel is not a great suggestion. If they all did that - the dive industry would fall apart - instructors would be jobless all over the place. It's OK when you have a large number of dive centers to work for but in many places, you might end up getting really stuck for options and that isn't your own choice. You end up with a terrible boss, and there's nowhere else to go and earn any money. I think that is like the tree cutting villager. ut:

This is another reason why I hope to keep teaching independently. I don't want to get in the situation where a dive center is making me do things I wouldn't normally do. However, I have the fortune of not having to rely on my teaching for my income. When instructors choose to teach for their career and it becomes their sole source of income - it's not their fault that the dive center they work for turns out not to be as good as they thought and they are left with the option of putting up with it or getting fired. But remember I am not saying that this gives them any excuse to breach saftey standards. Though some do that and they need to be suspended or have their licence revoked!

I have met so many instructors that say they are having a hard time working for this or that dive centre but they can't do anything about it because they need the money and there is nowhere else to work.

Also I would urge you to write to PADI if you have any complaints. Wouldn't that be more constructive? They want to hear what you think so they can improve or clarify a situation. You weren't happy with PADI classes because you didn't like the way things were done? Who's fault was that? Why are you blaming PADI and why did you not write or call them up and tell them why you thought things were wrong?

PADI is not perfect. But they update and correct things all the time. If people are using PADI courses and going
about teaching them badly that is not PADI's fault.

dear bermudaskink, i dont think we will agree on this but that is fine. as for choices, instructors choose to become instructors and i have a hard time believing they dont know what goes on in divecenters. as an instructor you can choose to make it a career but if you do, safety and not money has to be your first priority. and in fact the divecenter should be reported to the agency or some agency that should do QA of divecenters.

as for contacting PADI, i have contacted them on several minor things that should be improved, i have sent them some other comments on how i see things are done in the field and i have yet to see a reply. that doesnt surprise me because in order to improve quality of training the bar would need to be raised and good 'ol PADI is not going to do that because it would make it 'too hard' to get certified and people will go elsewhere. and here i have to admit it is not just PADI's fault, afterall, PADI gives people what they want, a c-card in the fastest, easiest possibly way with the least amount of effort so they can go dive in the tropics. PADI has no interest in raising the bar, that wouldnt be good for business. but all that has been extensively covered in other threads....

and if PADI courses are taught badly that is PADI's responsibility, PADI's QA obviously fails in that department.

 

[Custer]

DrSteve once bubbled...
I was not making any baseless accusation. That is a *fact* and was made clear in 1993 to an Advanced BSAC Instructor from NE Essex BSAC branch 54 who was taking the PADI instructor course.

Since it's a *fact*, I'm sure you can shoot us a quick cite for your 10 yr old second hand hearsay anecdote.

DrSteve once bubbled...
Nothing baseless about it. Whether the stats confirm that PAID is as safe as any othe agency is irrelevant. The fact that their goals are profit>fun>safety and not profit=fun=safety is the problem.

Baseless opinion, unless you can indicate to us where PADI issued that statement (if they did) with the *intent* of ranking safety after profit.

 

[MikeFerrara]

learn-scuba once bubbled...


I'm curious... did you take a course in debate in college and really really like it? ~smile~

My only point was that I have always felt that students, once certified, are really only just taking their first baby steps. it's not that I'm not teaching them enough, but more that you have to get a good tenty or so dives under your belt before you even BEGIN to get comfortable in the water.

The driver license analogy is outstanding for that very reason... because no matter how good the driver ed course may be, it's impossble to be a "good" driver until you have some miles on the highway logged.

I commented on his statement because I find that to be an excellent way to explain to my students in terms they can relate to that they are only just beginning to learn once certified and that having been issued a C-card does not make them instant SCUBA Gods (or Godesses as the case may be).

But, somehow, I'm almost certain you'll reply having broken my post down into multiple parts for analysis and debate (said with a cheesy grin)

Hmmm, I wasn't possing an argument. I was voicing agreement with a little note of my own. That's all.

 

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33 once bubbled...


dear bermudaskink, i dont think we will agree on this but that is fine. as for choices, instructors choose to become instructors and i have a hard time believing they dont know what goes on in divecenters. as an instructor you can choose to make it a career but if you do, safety and not money has to be your first priority. and in fact the divecenter should be reported to the agency or some agency that should do QA of divecenters.

Actually, most instructors don't have a clue what goes on at the heart of the dive center. IME, instructors (especially new instructors) are products of the same system as every one else and they don't know what they don't know until they stumble on it on their own.

 

[learn-scuba]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Hmmm, I wasn't possing an argument. I was voicing agreement with a little note of my own. That's all.

Smile Mike -- I was just playing (that's why the grinz and stuff)

 

[MikeFerrara]

BTW,

I haven't looked in a while but I think PADI has their mission statement posted on their website.