Padi/ Bsac

[Custer]

DrSteve once bubbled...
5) PADI makes money from selling teaching materials. Get over it!
This BSAC/PADi and SSI trained diver has no problem with making money. As quoted to me by my old BSAC instructor (BSAC Advanced instructor number and name can be supplied):
1. PADI's number 1 goal is profit
2. PADI's number 2 goal is enjoyment
3. PADI's number 3 goal is safety.
Can you guess which one BSAC has a problem with?

That's a matter of your very subjective opinion.

PADI's guidlines are obviously within WRSTC standards, just like everybody else, and injury statistics readily available point out that only a small percentage of deaths or injuries occur to the recently certified. A number so small as to be insignificant. I doubt that anyone who works for corporate PADI would appreciate your baseless accusation.

They only provide services to the demand of the populace, which, in any other endevor, would be called good marketing. It's only the arrogance of those that forget they are a product of that system (which the majority of us are) that condemn it.

BSAC may well have a (slightly) better record, but only through virulent restriction and handholding that PADI bashers otherwise decry. You can't have it both ways, and the average American wouldn't subject themselves to those restrictions, being told for an indefinate time when, where, how and with whom you may dive.

Not a chance.

DrSteve once bubbled...
Now having gotten that off my chest. Some good points. PADI divers are not trained to the same standards as BSAC divers. Why do BSAC instructors play for both teams - money...they like it as much as the rest of us. I was blessed with nothing less than superb instructors with BSAC, SSI and PADI. I cannot fault them. However, I think now as I did then...the basic OW course needs to cover more.

I love BSAC and if I could I would continue with them - but alas I am in the US so I'll be the best diver I can be with whatever agency I stick with. That's what makes me a better diver than Joe Schmo.

I'm a PADI three day wonder. I looked at my c-card as a requisite to begin learning, like a driver's license or a black belt. Through my own choice and effort, I have greatly advanced my skills and knowlege. But I was perfectly safe after 3 days of instruction to dive within the intended limits of that instruction.

 

[bermudaskink]

Gosh! I'll never get any work done today will I??

I did say "consider other expenses" because I didn't want to make a long list - I am not sure why you were loosing money on OW courses. How much were you charging per student? That sucks. The dive center owners I know of are raking it in! They don't sell much in the way of equipment.

MOST recreational diving IS done while people are on holiday in warm waters. I am talking on global terms here.

In my opinion, it's still better to watch the video in class if you are on holiday or not, unless the students would rather do it in their own time.

However, the videos you buy are a one off cost for the dive center. That's what I meant.

 

[learn-scuba]

Custer once bubbled...
<snip> I looked at my c-card as a requisite to begin learning, like a driver's license or a black belt. <snip>

That's an outstanding point of view. I'm going to have to steal that one for my classes. next class starts tonight... I'll have to test that out on them ~smile~

 

[MikeFerrara]

bermudaskink once bubbled...

So, back to my original point. PADI doesn’t actually make as much as you think. But yeah, it is a business and yeah it makes money from people learning to dive. What’s wrong with that? PADI makes money from teaching divers how to be safe and have fun underwater. If a student follows all of PADI’s recommendations and advice and has been taught by a fairly decent instructor they will have as much chance of being safe underwater as a diver trained by any other agency to the same level in any waters (so long as they are familiar with what skills are required for diving in different waters from what they were trained in, and have suitable experience or training for whatever those conditions may be). The company who makes the books and the videos for students to use for learning to dive isn’t responsible for divers safety, the divers are! I do believe that PADI sufficiently provides the teaching materials and standards for novice divers to learn how NOT to kill themselves underwater and gives them the skills necessary to have a safe and fun diving experience and reminds them to dive only within their own limits. How can PADI do any better than that? I am sure they would like to know.

I just don’t understand why people have such a big problem with PADI? What’s really wrong with they way they make Scuba diving so easy to teach? The accident rates for divers trained by other agencies are the same as those suffered by PADI divers after all.

I don't single PADI out in this. In an effort to make diving easy and availablt to a large number of people and to supply the large number of instructors needed to do that, IMO, lots of corners are being cut. I don't believe divers are really being trained to a level adequate to dive safely of have fun. I've seen to many people hurt or nearly hurt because of things like a free flowing reg, which is something we see often in cold water. In class divers do it sitting on the bottom. When it happens for real they're midwater and a rapid ascent is the result. I see too many classes that provide the absolut minimum in water time to keep costs down. The divers comming out of these classes are an absolut mess in the water. They're not being tought to dive they're barely being tought to breath underwater. As I said, I haven't seen one agency putting out better students than the others. Rather than calling it recreational diving they should change the name to recreational UW breathing.

IMO, the only reason the injury rate is as low as it is is because of the easy, supervised, canned diving that's done at resorts. When those divers try it here on their own they don't do so good. IMO, ther are lots of holes in the standards and I have detailed them in many posts.

[/B][/QUOTE]

 

[MikeFerrara]

Custer once bubbled...

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

The basic skills required to dive well are the same for all waters.


The basic skills to dive well as the same for all waters.

But not the basic skills to dive.

That's why i often try to differentiate between diving and UW breathing. I think they're two different things.

 

[MikeFerrara]

learn-scuba once bubbled...


That's an outstanding point of view. I'm going to have to steal that one for my classes. next class starts tonight... I'll have to test that out on them ~smile~

I agree that a card is a license to learn. However, without a solid enough foundation on which to build the whole thing just crumbles from the bottom up.

 

[Custer]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


That's why i often try to differentiate between diving and UW breathing. I think they're two different things.

That's good.

 

[bermudaskink]

No, I haven't taken any BSAC courses. I just crossed over directly. I belive I have to attend two lectures which have not been held yet, in order to meet the full requirements to corss over completely. I don't expect to learn anything too different to PADI except the tables and decompression rules are different. I have been talking to a lot of BSAC divers though about the courses and what each level requires, skill wise.

So, I guess this means I can't answer your other questions.

 

[Custer]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I agree that a card is a license to learn. However, without a solid enough foundation on which to build the whole thing just crumbles from the bottom up.

You are absolutely right.

But this is where we diverge.

How much is enough?

Shouldn't we train all divers like a Navy BUDS Class?

Hell Week should seperate the whiners.

Keep in mind by GUE standards, your classed are probably inferior, unless you kick out the smoking and the obese.

BSAC's program is clearly superior, but is it necessary?

Frankly, Underwater Breathing is sufficiant for a majority of divers.

Those who seek to advance, will.

 

[learn-scuba]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I agree that a card is a license to learn. However, without a solid enough foundation on which to build the whole thing just crumbles from the bottom up.

I'm curious... did you take a course in debate in college and really really like it? ~smile~

My only point was that I have always felt that students, once certified, are really only just taking their first baby steps. it's not that I'm not teaching them enough, but more that you have to get a good tenty or so dives under your belt before you even BEGIN to get comfortable in the water.

The driver license analogy is outstanding for that very reason... because no matter how good the driver ed course may be, it's impossble to be a "good" driver until you have some miles on the highway logged.

I commented on his statement because I find that to be an excellent way to explain to my students in terms they can relate to that they are only just beginning to learn once certified and that having been issued a C-card does not make them instant SCUBA Gods (or Godesses as the case may be).

But, somehow, I'm almost certain you'll reply having broken my post down into multiple parts for analysis and debate (said with a cheesy grin)