Padi/ Bsac

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DrSteve once bubbled...
IanWigg - There have been BSAC schools for a long time. They still teach the same syllabus as a branch, but full time.

DiverBrian - yes it makes perfect sense...plan the dive, dive the plan. If everything works no problem. If you are drilled then that kind of thing shouldn't be an issue, it'll be second nature, but the problem is it isn't. No one plans to have a diver emergency at 60 feet for 2 minutes follwed by resumption of normal diving.

I will relate to you diving in the Keys with about 30 feet of visability and 30 feet, with some random diver. I looked around and saw him. Looked again a few seconds later and he's not there, look around 360x360 and nothing. I surface...oh he decided he needed to surface and was back at the dive boat. With another (now ex) buddy who has well over 100 dives - planned our dive (navigation exercise with about 5 foot visability) and agreed we would stay above 20 feet. 20 feet should have been easy, that was the thermocline, you can at least feel it. We go down, and then whoosh he's heading for the very murky bottom, so much for our plan. I surfaced swearing a lot.

No amount of planning kept these two divers within the plan and as a result screwed up my diving. But I'll ask/say again, if you saw your buddy swimming down rapidly, would you really just let him go? Is your training that ingrained? Wouldn't you try? That's where that boring pool time comes in. I know I would let them go after a point, but if it was my wife my judgement might be very clouded.

At that point in my diving career, I would have and still will come up and meet at the surface. (30 ft. dive, also known as "one long safety stop" on the EAN36 that I typically dive for shallow depths). If it was a staged deco dive, things would have to be played by ear. That is why we get more experience before attempting more complex diving. At a certain point, common sense is more important than a hard and fast rulebook.

And yes, we were drilled in our open water to look out for our buddy. As I said, I did take more than three days for my OW course. But, we were also drilled to not dive beyond our limitations. Like you, then and now, (just now with more knowledge and tricks up my sleeve to help) I would swim down after the diver until I felt that I was in EXTREME peril (how deep that would be I have no idea, but seeing that I dive EANx most of the time, I guarantee you that it wouldn't be 200 ft.). At that point, as our DM in Provo wrote on the white board for our dive briefings.... by "the abyss" or "big blue" he wrote C'Ya. He told us that he would send flowers to the funeral of someone who looked for the bottom of the wall and say nice words about us after he went home to his wife.

If it was family, I have no idea how far that I would push it and I don't wish to ever find out. But they wouldn't be diving with me in even 130 ft. of water if I thought that they weren't capable of it. The water up here, like in your native country, can be very cold and unforgiving. This is not a place to play around with safety and our divers are trained to dive in local conditions as OW students are supposed to be trained to do.

Typically, prior to taking them on a wreck diving trip, the LDS insists on them doing a couple of "fun dives" at a local lake with a couple of boats on the bottom (cabin cruisers) in about 45 ft. of water to the sand. This is AFTER OW certification. This gives them a chance to get more comfortable in cold water and learn to dive with different buddies than they had in their OW class.

Believe it or not, Dr. Steve, we are on similar wavelengths. I didn't say that you probably don't graduate safer divers with the method that you talk about. I just said that for the added margin of safety over the courses that are taught, most of us in the US don't agree on the value. I would say that there are ways to accomplish this without boring students for three months (well, two months they are still probably interested after the first month).

I didn't need my hand held after my first open water dive following cert. I learned more by doing it on my own (with an experienced by non-professional buddy) and that would have been my sixth dive in my second location. I knew my limits and I dived them. Pretty simple way to improve, really. Magically, I got better (especially after I got rid of an instructor who seemed to be checking me off on every little detail. I am a perfectionist. That always makes me nervous.) and was able to expand those limits in short order.

Enjoy your diving!
 
divermasterB once bubbled...


Do you give your students PADI carribean open water diver cards?

If not, then you need to consider the fact that you are training divers to dive in open water anywhere. If you teach with the attitude your students will only be diving in tropical water, then you are doing them a great disservice.

I think your point is valid only so far.

OW environments vary, and no OW student ever trained is prepared for every OW dive they could do.

For instance, the Bermuda divers have no need for drysuit proficiency, while an Alaskan OW student will obviously require it.

I wouldn't expect someone trained exclusively in a quarry to be familiar with boat diving.

Key West OW divers may not be familiar with altitude diving, whereas a Denver OW diver better understand it.

Would you require a seperate card for each scenario?

By default, a diver will learn to dive in his surroundings.

If he changes his surrounding significantly, he needs to see further enlightenment.
 
DiverBrian I am with you.

Custer - I think that students should be aware of these issues. BSAC covers them in perhaps greater detail than is necessary, but at least you are aware of them.

So...how about a system where everyone keeps their own standards BUT requirement to advance is based on logged and authenticated dives combined with advanced courses showing a range of skills. Say you live in Indiana - you can't easily do ocean diving, but you could do deep, cold, low vis, night, drift in a river. For those more geared for coastal diving add in shore diving, boat diving, wreck diving etc., Make it like some states have their drivers licenses set up. Hell even require 1 dive trip with a LDS to get signed off.

I just got another SSI level signed off woo hoo...I was rather shocked to see the dive shop didn't want to even look at my log record! I'll be elligable for dive master probably the end of next year, with a good range of skills shown in my log. Then there's the guy who goes to the quarry and does 4 identical dives for a weekend and knocks up enough dives for DM after a month!
 
DrSteve once bubbled...
DiverBrian I am with you.

Custer - I think that students should be aware of these issues. BSAC covers them in perhaps greater detail than is necessary, but at least you are aware of them.

Then a student should read his manual. Most all of the relevent categories you mention are in it.

The bottom line is, not only are scuba deaths at a decade long low, they are also half of what they were around 30 years ago when training was much tougher. Not to mention a per-capita decrease.

This isn't to indicate that training is better, or worse, more or less thorough.

This is only to indicate that whatever minimum standards are set forth by the WRSTC, they are obviously sufficient for basic scuba diving.

I don't criticize BSAC for being thorough, even if it's obviously not necessary. The information is out there for those who choose it, but shouldn't be forced on those who don't want or need it.

DrSteve once bubbled...
So...how about a system where everyone keeps their own standards BUT requirement to advance is based on logged and authenticated dives combined with advanced courses showing a range of skills. <snip>. Hell even require 1 dive trip with a LDS to get signed off.

We have that system in place now, voluntarily. But log signatures cannot be verified, and to be too rigorous in that would be bad for an LDS's business. "Requiring" divers to do this or that will simply encourage them to spend money elsewhere. Witness the fools that require snorkels for boat dives, for instance, that will never see a penny of mine. Nor will boats that forbid nitrox. It will also empower people who are grossly impartial, as evidenced here daily, to be in a position to control your diving. I really don't care that you would refuse to dive with me, but you, as someone that differs so greatly in diving philosophy, shouldn't have any control of my diving, unless it's at your monetary expense.

DrSteve once bubbled...
I just got another SSI level signed off woo hoo...I was rather shocked to see the dive shop didn't want to even look at my log record! <snip>

I explained above why that was. They're also fully aware that you can create whatever log you want, with little or no possibility of verification, and time spent in verification is monetarily non-productive.
 
The bottom line is, not only are scuba deaths at a decade long low, they are also half of what they were around 30 years ago when training was much tougher. Not to mention a per-capita decrease.

I suspect that much of this is due to the greater knowledge we have concerning DCS. 30 years ago bottom times were great, ascent times were fast. Hell, 10 years ago an acceptable ascent rate was the same speed as your bubbles! The diving skills haven't gotten better or worse in 30 years, but what we know about safe diving has improved drastically.
 
"The bottom line is, not only are scuba deaths at a decade long low, they are also half of what they were around 30 years ago when training was much tougher. Not to mention a per-capita decrease."

DrSteve once bubbled...
I suspect that much of this is due to the greater knowledge we have concerning DCS. 30 years ago bottom times were great, ascent times were fast. Hell, 10 years ago an acceptable ascent rate was the same speed as your bubbles! The diving skills haven't gotten better or worse in 30 years, but what we know about safe diving has improved drastically.

Better gear, better practices, easier dives (tourist industry) DAN, several contributing factors.
 
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