OW v. AOW

[Christi]

Who said anything about patronizing?...

...The hard part was putting together a curriculum that would challenge them ... these two are pretty good divers who really wanted an opportunity for a more formal education.

...Granted, it wasn't your typical AOW course ... but they weren't your typical AOW students...

I never patronize or belittle a student. If they want to take a class of mine, I will always find a way to challenge them to learn something new.

Why else teach?

.... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I did not mean to imply that you belittle students, sorry if that's how it came across.

It looks like we actually agree on things here and have the same general philosophy, as does zendiver. Again, it was me who probably didn't convey my thoughts well. I seem to have had a problem with that yesterday :031:

Zendiver did an excellent job of explaining it to pilot fish as well.

A person with your experience taking one of my advanced classes would be challenged differently than say a new diver entering the same class. As an instructor I work very hard to teach to the level of my students. As NWGratefuldiver pointed out, some advanced diver candidates require more challenging exercises. You with 95 dives would be one of those candidates. I would expect more from you than I would a newer diver.

Peace everyone, I hope you guys iwill forgive me and accept my apologies :sofa:

 

[pilot fish]

Bob,

I did not mean to imply that you belittle students, sorry if that's how it came across.

It looks like we actually agree on things here and have the same general philosophy, as does zendiver. Again, it was me who probably didn't convey my thoughts well. I seem to have had a problem with that yesterday :031:

Zendiver did an excellent job of explaining it to pilot fish as well.


Peace everyone, I hope you guys iwill forgive me and accept my apologies :sofa:

I don't think you need to apologize for anything, Christi. I must really be missing something here. All I see are a few people with different views, which we are all entitled too, including you ::, expressing what they feel. It's just a debate, a good one, I think. We need to just move away from thinking the other guys is a dope because they don't agree with us.

 

[Christi]

...It's just a debate, a good one, I think. We need to just move away from thinking the other guys is a dope because they don't agree with us.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Differing views and opinions are what make the world interesting

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't think you need to apologize for anything, Christi. I must really be missing something here. All I see are a few people with different views, which we are all entitled too, including you ::, expressing what they feel. It's just a debate, a good one, I think. We need to just move away from thinking the other guys is a dope because they don't agree with us.

I agree with pilot fish, thanks for offering Christi ... but you have no reason to apologize. I was simply clarifying my own thoughts, to assure you understood where I am coming from.

As stated, I think that we're fundamentally coming from the same direction on this one.

Something that really bothers me is when I read in these forums people stating that they didn't learn anything from AOW. That's not a reflection on the student, but rather on the instructor who didn't put the effort into the class. AOW, more than any other course, should be tailored to the needs and experience level of the student taking the class.

Glad to see other instructors out there taking that approach ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[pilot fish]

Not to be disrespectful because you bring up alot of valid points but as an instructor that has trained well over 250 advanced divers, both with tons of experience and with little to no experience right out of basic, I finish every class and as I am sure many instructors do by saying that having this card does not automatically make you an advanced diver. The number of dives you have prior to any class is arbritrary to what you gain from it leaving it. A person with your experience taking one of my advanced classes would be challenged differently than say a new diver entering the same class. As an instructor I work very hard to teach to the level of my students. As NWGratefuldiver pointed out, some advanced diver candidates require more challenging exercises. You with 95 dives would be one of those candidates. I would expect more from you than I would a newer diver.

Most people know their personal level, they don't need a card to tell them. There are exceptions, but for the most part I find this to be true. I encourage divers to take the advanced course right out of basic because it gives me 6 more dives with them as their instructor and enables me to have a stronger influence on their diving career and their decision making skills as it pertains to scuba diving. You bring a valid point of diving with more experienced divers and I encourage the same thing but keep in mind that just because they are very experienced does not qualify them to teach. Some call this a trust me dive and is not usually a good idea if the level of diving is above yours. They may forget to tell you things that are sub-consious to them that instructors have to talk about because it is in our standards.

You can show me a Master Diver card or even an instructor card and I never assume anything. I once saw an instructor fail at mask clearing on a guide checkout dive. I give a good interview and ask questions about their experience, the environents they dive in, how many dives, when was the last dive, etc.... And even then I am constantly evaluating them in the water. You are right in saying that a title or lable like advanced diver doesnt mean anything without experience behind it but it does say a willingness to learn on the students part and now that you are the "experienced" diver that will mentoring new divers with fresh advanced cards you will be even more challenged to help them dive within their limits and not yours just as your mentors helped you. Your definately on the right track. =)

Brian

You are not disrespectful at all. You have a lot more experience than I so your opinion should carry more weight than mine. But, what some experienced divers are saying and what I am seeing in the real dive world, is quite different. I think your advice to your students is perfect. Not all instructors do that.

Again, yeah, learn the tables, if you can, but we all know that the puter is what rules as a primary. And, let's get a clue about new divers with 6 or 8 dives going for AOW cert? That is just so bogus it makes me quiver! Let's put more meaning into AOW cert!

 

[The Kraken]

Good morning, Pilot !!!
I hope things are well with you and that you had a good Thanksgiving.

I must agree with what is generally seen on dive boats - and it's NOT divers refering to tables and planning dives. In fact, what I see mostly on dives boats gives me cause for alarm.

I will admit that I am very anal about certain things, such as preflighting my aircraft before a flight, checking my regulators, planning my dive based on tables, etc. . . but I am alive. There are many divers and pilots out there who are dead simply because they did not take the effort to plan their dive/flight or properly check their gear.

Planning your dive and recording it somewhere allows for a contingency response to a negative situation - a crapped out computer.

I have read in publications that, upon the failure of a computer, one should immediately ascend, make a 10 minute safety stop and then not dive for a period of 12 hours. I remember this because I thought it was so extremely reactive.

I will make a generalization here because I am not studied in all of the algorithms incorporated into today's dive computers, but most work from very similar programs on very similar algorithms. The computer replicates a dive profile based upon established tables - it's an electronic slate. Take away the air intergrated types of computers and all you have is an instrument that measures your depth and the amount of time you've been under water, the rest is nothing more than mathematical calculations.

I'm not advocating committing dive tables to memory, that's beyond the pale of most peoples abilities.

What I do advocate is learning how to use the tables and the underlying reasons that they were developed. I feel one should plan a dive from time to time while using one's computer simply as an SPG and timer so that one will retain the ability to use the tables effectively.

For myself, I will plan my dive, record it on my little slate, tuck it between my back and back plate, set up my dive computer, initiate my dive and hope the pooter doesn't crap out. If my computer malfunctions, I pull out my little slate, check the initial time recordings and planned depth, revert to my SPG and watch and continue my dive.

A pneumatic nail gun is a wonderful tool, but sometimes the compressor craps out and you have to break out the old claw hammer and the 8 penny nails!

Safe dives . . .
safer ascents!

 

[pilot fish]

Kraken, tell me how you plan your dive, what are your considerations? Do you say, I will do these particular levels and times, or do you just say that X will be my max depth? I never know what I'm going to do, even depth usually, until I get in the water. I know my max depth but I have no idea if I will go near that depth or what other levels I will dive. I dive solo so I have the pick of the draw on boats as to who, and what level of experience, my buddy will be. It has run the gamut, from people that should NEVER have been certified, to divers that were as good as fish in the water.

Morning to you as weel. Hope you, and everyone else too, had a great Thanksgiving.

 

[The Kraken]

In fresh water I dive it's very easy, the bottom is always a given because I have maps and charts for the dive area, therefore a square or multi-level dive profile is easy to establish. I use The Wheel and plan the dive to the max bottom, if I don't get that deep, no problem. I record the dive plan on my slate, I then set the dive computer to the dive I've planned. The computer doesn't give me 5' increments so I set it to the next deeper depth on a 10' increment, that give me an additional 5 feet margin.

NOW, if I plan for a dive, say on a wreck to 100' but find the superstructure too interesting to leave and it's at 65', I don't whip out the old tables and recalculate the dive, I now refer to the computer for my O2 or nitrogen loading graphs to indicate my NDL because the pooter is calculating the gas loading for that specific depth. When the gas loading indicator moves into the caution area I will end the dive.

On boat dives I usually have to wait until the captain decides where the dive location is to be and then gives me the max depth at the dive site. Out come the tables and the dive planning commences. The rest is the same as a fresh water dive.

Multi-level dives are handled in the same fashion. I usually dive on nitrox and use the permissible allowances of O2 loading to set the levels and times for the multi-level dive. You'll learn how to do that in your nitrox class (makes planning for repetitive dives much easier!!!).

 

[pilot fish]

How many times have you been told you are going to a particular site, only to find out that has changed, for one reason or another, dive boat already there, strong current, etc, and you speed off to a different site? Do you have to recalculate and pour over your charts again? It just seems easier to use your puter. I mean, what do I need to know, max depth for that mix, then use dive planner for times.

 

[The Kraken]

That pretty much sums it up.

You know your max depth, or depth to which you want to dive, if it's different than your initial site.

Keep in mind that, yes, you can just punch in your max depth and you mix in your computer and dive, but it gives you no back up should it malfunction.

It's all about safety and redundancy.