OW v. AOW

[Christi]

Nick, I applaud you for wanting to continue your education. But AOW should be far more than "5 dives with full attention of an instructor".

I agree 100%

This isn't in any way a negative reflection on you ... it's a statement about how many agencies and LDS market the AOW class these days ... to the detriment of the student.

Well, this point is debatable. Again, going back to the course name debate. PADI for example is technically calling the course "Adventures in Diving" so as not to imply that it is an "advanced" course under the meaning of "advanced" as we most often think of it. The Adventures in Diving course is geared as an introduction to five specialties offered. In these introduction dives, the diver should be introduced to all of the things you so thoroughly explained below. In each respective specialty, they are expected to master the techniques and skills for each type of dive.

SSI has a similar concept. In order to obtain the advanced certification, you must first complete five specialties completely. Obviously with this format, the diver completes more dives before actually earning the "Advanced" rating. In my opinion, this is an excellent approach and is closer to a true Advanced course than PADI's program. But again, the point is that the PADI program is not designed to be an "Advanced" diver course. I think that is the point that so many people are missing.

The PADI program has a Master Scuba Diver rating. This is NOT a divemaster, this is a diver that has completed five or more separate complete specialties. This is closer to the SSI Advanced program. I would like to see (but probably won't happen) PADI change the "Master Scuba Diver" rating to "Advanced Open Water Diver" and change the current Advanced Open Water Diver that is printed on the cards to "Adventure Diver" or something along those lines. Master Scuba diver is easily confused by non-diving professionals as Dive Master, and in my opinion is also misleading. There is a HUGE difference in divemaster training and master scuba diver training.

AOW is where you get your first exposure to night, navigation, and deep diving.

Not necessarily. There are MANY, MANY open water divers who have dove below 60 feet, done night dives, and do navigation dives on a regular basis. The training as we all know as instructors should be adapted to the environment where we are teaching. For example, some instructors do an excellent job teaching navigation techniques and compass use in the open water class if conditions require it.

There are also other electives, but these are the "basic three" that everyone takes. Each of those dives imposes environmental conditions that require skills you usually do not get in basic Open Water class. These skills should be fully explained in a classroom environment before taking the student out in those conditions. If your AOW doesn't include class time, you are getting short-changed.

I disagree on your last point. Most SCUBA students are adults with very busy schedules. Additionally, most adults learn by doing/applying/practicing rather than sitting in a formal classroom setting. While I agree that there are many points that should be thoroughly discussed before (and after) the dives, I do not agree that you need a formal classroom setting to be effective in teaching/learning these things. Again, PADI has designed the Adventures in Diving course to be fun and informative as well as to get people excited about other areas of interest in diving…as well as to broaden and elaborate on what they learned in the open water course. I require my students to do the reading and knowledge development on their own (usually before arriving in Cozumel). Once they arrive, we go over each knowledge review, and discuss concepts that need more elaboration or discuss them as to how they apply in the local environment as well as how things would be applied in their local dive environment, as well as others. I give a thorough briefing before each dive explaining what we will be doing, what I expect from them , and things I want them to think about/notice/pay attention to during the dive. After the dive, we discuss all of these things again as applicable. I certainly do not feel I am shortchanging my students by not making them sit in a classroom for X number of hours...quite the contrary actually.

Additionally, as several people have said, by the time some people get to the AOW course, they may already have 50 or 100 or more dives under their belt. At this point there are still obviously things for them to learn, but harping on gas management skills, buoyancy control, and the feelings of narcosis to a diver who has been diving regularly for a year or two or three already can be patronizing and unnecessary to many divers and having them sit in a formal classroom setting for a prescribed number of hours is not necessary. PADI’s approach allows us some discretion in that regard and allows us to remediate where necessary, but not to patronize divers so that they feel degraded or belittled.

Navigation skills involve more than learning how to read a compass. You should be learning techniques for swimming patterns, counting kick cycles, timing distances, observing natural objects, and counteracting the effects of current.
Deep diving skills involve far more than simply taking someone below 60 feet and making them solve a puzzle. You should be learning gas management skills, how to deal with the effects of narcosis, a more in-depth look at the effects of DCS and how to prevent them ... and you should be working on your bouyancy skills such that you can safely and dependably do a free ascent from depth.

Night diving skills involve way more than making someone buy a backup light and tank reflector. You should be covering limited visibility diving, managing a buddy team such that you can keep constant track of each other's movements, what to do if your light (or your buddy's light) fails, and how to find your way back to your entry on night shore dives.

AOW is where you should be learning how to plan your dives to the conditions you will be diving. It's where you should leave behind forever the notion that you need to kneel on the bottom to adjust your mask or manage simple equipment issues ... heck, this is where a competent instructor teaches you how to share air and ascend in a controlled manner while the two of you are breathing off of each other's regulator. This is where you should learn how to do proper weight checks ... so that as you acquire your own gear you will have the knowledge to weight yourself properly. It's where you should become familiar with the relationship between trim and buoyancy.

These skills are what makes an advanced diver. No ... you won't perfect them during the class. But you certainly should be introduced to them there.

Agreed, these skills and mastering these skills makes an advanced diver…but again, obtaining the card alone does not do this. Practice and experience underwater applying these skills is what makes a diver an “advanced” diver.

AOW should be far more than simply five guided dives ...

Overall, I agree, but again it depends on the intent and scope of the specific program.

 

[ZenDiver]

Here is a exercise for everyone with more than 100 dives. Take a stroll down memory lane and try to remember why you took advanced class or what ever the next step was called. You were excited about the sport and your new hobby. You wanted to learn new skills. You wanted to learn how to do some of the more exciting dives like night diving. You wanted to improve your navigational skills....I am sure the list can continue. Many of my students just want to have more fun. What ever the course is called its has one thing in common. Learning. I think most divers are intelligent enough to decide for themselves after their advanced class to push the envelope slowly. Most just want to stay involved. Some will only go diving with an instructor or DM. Some will never go past 80 feet of depth after their advanced cert. Some will never do another night dive again. Some will never look at their compass again. Some will learn through guided self discovery and some will learn from hardknocks. This is the way it is sometimes. In the Dive Charter biz it is nothing more than a legal term to protect them from law suits IMO.

Some things are covered in Advanced that are not covered in Basic. We as instructor have to be diligent and comprehensive and teach everything we can impart to our students. Students can take that knowlege and make good decisions based on that foundation. All agencies have an outline to follow and in addition to that outline we can teach more specific skills to the environment that we are diving in.

To the student I say bravo. Keep plugging away at classes. Advanced, Rescue, Master, Nitrox, Deep, Wreck, Night, whatever class suits you. The people giving you indepth and knowlegable advise here got them from either taking classes themselves, reading, or a good mentor. They got it from personal experience and just plain diving. Scuba Diving is one of the rare sports and hobbies where continued education is not only common place it is encouraged. Take what you learn and make sound decisions for yourself and your dive buddy. Push the limits slowly and cautiosly. When unfamiliar with a type of dive or a new skill unfamiliar with then by all means seek assistance and guidance from professionals. All Advanced certification is a new license to learn more. The next step in your journey. This new hobby or old hobby has no destination.

Learn to Dive, Dive to Learn.

Brian

 

[Christi]

Eloquently said!

I ditto everything you just said!

 

[pilot fish]

Just my 2c. I'm going through OW right now (unless I somehow screw up, I am hoping to be certified tomorrow and I'm intending on taking AOW as soon as I can afterward.
I have no illusions about my level of skill, and fully understand that 5 dives of *any* kind cannot make someone "advanced" but I'm not gonna turn down 5 dives with full attention of an instructor! I think it will be a great chance for me to learn about new environments to dive in, as well as giving time to go over in more detail some of the things you just cannot get to in the basic OW class.

nick

All the very best to you. Pat yourself on the back for picking a great sport, great hobby.

I have an issue with recently certified OW divers being allowed to go for AOW with just a few dives. I think this just shows how meaningless a lot of these certs are .You should really have a minimum number of dives, 25 to 50, let's say, in oder to go for AOW, I think

 

[pilot fish]

Let me say a few things about OW v. AOW in my personal dive history, short as it is, - with 95 dives in 2 1/2- you can see I'm not a DM ,or think I'm too smart to learn.

As an new OW diver I did a night dive with a bunch of experienced divers on my 10th dive. Before my AOW cert, at 85 dives, I had done about 7 night dives in different locations in the caribe. By the time I went for AOW I had been to, and below ,100ft about 25 times, always with divers more expereinced than I. 138 max - I think that was too deep for me at the time- caught in a down draft for a moment

By the time I went for AOW I had mastered my buoyancy and felt very comfortable in the water in different conditions. Always learning from divers with more experience than I have. My point is, you need to have, or should have, that in order to be ready for AOW. I really don't see how anyone, that goes for me too, back when I had only a few dives, could ever be ready to carry and Advanced card, or Adventure Diver card, whatever PADI is calling it now, without doing a bunch of dives under diferent conditions before being able to go for AOW cert. A new diver with only 8 dives, let's say, or 10, carrying an AOW card is a crock!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I agree 100%
Additionally, as several people have said, by the time some people get to the AOW course, they may already have 50 or 100 or more dives under their belt. At this point there are still obviously things for them to learn, but harping on gas management skills, buoyancy control, and the feelings of narcosis to a diver who has been diving regularly for a year or two or three already can be patronizing and unnecessary to many divers and having them sit in a formal classroom setting for a prescribed number of hours is not necessary. PADI’s approach allows us some discretion in that regard and allows us to remediate where necessary, but not to patronize divers so that they feel degraded or belittled.

Who said anything about patronizing? A couple months ago I had two AOW students who, between them, had logged over 600 dives. Neither had ever gone beyond OW because one was deaf and one had language issues ... so it took a little creativity to figure out how to present the class material. However, that was the easy part. The hard part was putting together a curriculum that would challenge them ... these two are pretty good divers who really wanted an opportunity for a more formal education.

I put together elements of the NAUI AOW and Master Diver programs, threw in a bit of DIR-F philosophy and skills, and combined it with some in-water drills that I knew would challenge them. It was a good class ... and they had to work hard to pass it. Granted, it wasn't your typical AOW course ... but they weren't your typical AOW students.

I never patronize or belittle a student. If they want to take a class of mine, I will always find a way to challenge them to learn something new.

Why else teach?

.... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DEEPLOU]

Let me say a few things about OW v. AOW in my personal dive history, short as it is, - with 95 dives in 2 1/2- you can see I'm not a DM ,or think I'm too smart to learn.

As an new OW diver I did a night dive with a bunch of experienced divers on my 10th dive. Before my AOW cert, at 85 dives, I had done about 7 night dives in different locations in the caribe. By the time I went for AOW I had been to, and below ,100ft about 25 times, always with divers more expereinced than I. 138 max - I think that was too deep for me at the time- caught in a down draft for a moment

By the time I went for AOW I had mastered my buoyancy and felt very comfortable in the water in different conditions. Always learning from divers with more experience than I have. My point is, you need to have, or should have, that in order to be ready for AOW. I really don't see how anyone, that goes for me too, back when I had only a few dives, could ever be ready to carry and Advanced card, or Adventure Diver card, whatever PADI is calling it now, without doing a bunch of dives under diferent conditions before being able to go for AOW cert. A new diver with only 8 dives, let's say, or 10, carrying an AOW card is a crock!

This is one hell of a thread in short time.

Seeing your from NYC, and you say 2 1/2 (years?) got close to hundred dives, that would imply you have to dive locally. (I only managed abt 57 local dives this year and I got out one day of most weekends all season)

I bring that up cause some divers w/ hundreds of dives in warm clear Carib waters with certs up the yeng yang can't dive in NY/NJ waters.

The Adventure (advanced) program is nothing more than "get these new divers out under some instructor's wing" maybe they will catch on and continue to dive safely.

I know a couple of divers who I don't even know if they have a cert card at all, all they have is close to 50 years of experience diving. (they started before such things as cert cards)

Lets not confuse an "Advanced dive" with " a diver w/ advanced cert card"

 

[pilot fish]

This is one hell of a thread in short time.

Seeing your from NYC, and you say 2 1/2 (years?) got close to hundred dives, that would imply you have to dive locally. (I only managed abt 57 local dives this year and I got out one day of most weekends all season)

I bring that up cause some divers w/ hundreds of dives in warm clear Carib waters with certs up the yeng yang can't dive in NY/NJ waters.

The Adventure (advanced) program is nothing more than "get these new divers out under some instructor's wing" maybe they will catch on and continue to dive safely.

I know a couple of divers who I don't even know if they have a cert card at all, all they have is close to 50 years of experience diving. (they started before such things as cert cards)]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]




Hey Lou, howyadoin? No, no dives locally. I did my OW dives at Dive Paradise ,WHAT A MISNOMER, in Rockaway, in 59* water with 2 to 3 ft vis. That was enough for me . I have thought, just lately, that I might want to try one of the local wrecks. I MIGHT be ready for that kind of cold water dive soon but I think I'll wait till I take a drysuit course first.

I have done all my dives in the Caribe, warm sissy diving

"Lets not confuse an "Advanced dive" with " a diver w/ advanced cert card"
ain't that the truff.

 

[ZenDiver]

All the very best to you. Pat yourself on the back for picking a great sport, great hobby.

I have an issue with recently certified OW divers being allowed to go for AOW with just a few dives. I think this just shows how meaningless a lot of these certs are .You should really have a minimum number of dives, 25 to 50, let's say, in oder to go for AOW, I think

Not to be disrespectful because you bring up alot of valid points but as an instructor that has trained well over 250 advanced divers, both with tons of experience and with little to no experience right out of basic, I finish every class and as I am sure many instructors do by saying that having this card does not automatically make you an advanced diver. The number of dives you have prior to any class is arbritrary to what you gain from it leaving it. A person with your experience taking one of my advanced classes would be challenged differently than say a new diver entering the same class. As an instructor I work very hard to teach to the level of my students. As NWGratefuldiver pointed out, some advanced diver candidates require more challenging exercises. You with 95 dives would be one of those candidates. I would expect more from you than I would a newer diver.

Most people know their personal level, they don't need a card to tell them. There are exceptions, but for the most part I find this to be true. I encourage divers to take the advanced course right out of basic because it gives me 6 more dives with them as their instructor and enables me to have a stronger influence on their diving career and their decision making skills as it pertains to scuba diving. You bring a valid point of diving with more experienced divers and I encourage the same thing but keep in mind that just because they are very experienced does not qualify them to teach. Some call this a trust me dive and is not usually a good idea if the level of diving is above yours. They may forget to tell you things that are sub-consious to them that instructors have to talk about because it is in our standards.

You can show me a Master Diver card or even an instructor card and I never assume anything. I once saw an instructor fail at mask clearing on a guide checkout dive. I give a good interview and ask questions about their experience, the environents they dive in, how many dives, when was the last dive, etc.... And even then I am constantly evaluating them in the water. You are right in saying that a title or lable like advanced diver doesnt mean anything without experience behind it but it does say a willingness to learn on the students part and now that you are the "experienced" diver that will mentoring new divers with fresh advanced cards you will be even more challenged to help them dive within their limits and not yours just as your mentors helped you. Your definately on the right track. =)

Brian

 

[Christi]

I want to apologize to Keysdiver for some of my remarks in an earlier post.

The intent of my post to Keysdiver was not to attack him, but to point out that he was the first to throw a jab at Don and that if he was going to do that he should be prepared to accept the consequences. However, I was incorrect as was pointed out to me. I had read a reposted quote to be an original post and falsly accused Keys of making the firt attack and insult on Don. In reality, it was Don who had actually done this, and I truly apologize for that. I should not have even gotten into the battle that was between them.

As seems to be overlooked in that same post, I agreed that Keys had alot of good points. However, I maintain that I still have a differing opinion on some of the things he said, and I am entitled to that...just as he or anyone else are entitled to their own opinions. If I said or implied that he was unsafe, I also apologize.

Unsafe was a harsh term for what I intended to convey (I admit I did a horrible job of conveying my message). Like Cancun Mark, I do still teach the tables as a back-up method and will continue to do so. At the same time, I encourage students to dive with a computer and to fully understand it's use and the general theory behind their particular computer. If they do not understand at least the basic concept of the computer, it really is not an advantage to them. Decompression theory and dive theory is in fact evolving everyday, but I am not ready to discount the tables as worthless yet. I agree that computers are much more accurate, but I maintain that the tables are a safe back-up in case of computer failure.

My apology is sincere and my intention is never to "bash" anyone. Likewise I hate to see when others are doing it to each other, and I need to learn to just stay out of other people's battles.

Peace everyone, especially to Keysdiver.