Overhead environments and open water scuba divers

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

DD, I think you misread my post.

What I was trying to say was that if the place you're swimming into offers ANY possibility of severely reduced visibility, you need the skills to follow a guideline in low or zero viz, and open water divers don't have that skill. Therefore, if a guide proposes a swimthrough of a wreck or a swim into a lava tube, one of the questions should be, "What is the bottom composition, and is it possible to blow the viz?" If the answer isn't 100% sand, and no, the OW trained diver has no business in that place.

Even in 100% sand, vis can be trashed. Just look at on OW dive where someone starts kicking the crap out of the bottom. Granted, it goes away and clears quick, but in a situation where it is reduced for even 30 seconds could cause extreme problems by someone panicking and continuing to kick it up. Also, look at the Ginnie Ballroom a couple weeks ago where a place that seems to never blow out, went to zero in a matter of seconds.
 
DD, I think you misread my post.

What I was trying to say was that if the place you're swimming into offers ANY possibility of severely reduced visibility, you need the skills to follow a guideline in low or zero viz, and open water divers don't have that skill. Therefore, if a guide proposes a swimthrough of a wreck or a swim into a lava tube, one of the questions should be, "What is the bottom composition, and is it possible to blow the viz?" If the answer isn't 100% sand, and no, the OW trained diver has no business in that place.

Sometimes in a wreck you need to think of the top composition as well ... your exhaust bubbles can disturb rust that will turn your visibility to zero in a heartbeat ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
To me this is kinda like saying I can take my uncertified wife on many dives out in the open ocean where nothing would happen. Is it safe? Possibly. We could have dozens of dives without an issue. However, if an issue does happen and I have not trained her on how to handle that emergency, it's not going to be a happy ending. Untrained is untrained. You can get away with things for many moons, but the minute things go bad, they go REALLY bad.

Now, jmneill is a good guy. I have talked to him before. I can understand where he is coming from. I was that way myself. I am glad he is seeking the training, and one day I am sure we will enjoy some caverns together.
 
Interesting comments and great food for thought. I would also add a question about entanglement risks. Every Overhead environment I have entered lol the massive number of 3 have been rock with zero possibility of silting, entanglement or getting lost. I have refused to enter anything where I felt there was the slightest risk of any of those.

Several people have commented that training is fairly cheap and readily available. That is certainly not the case in our area!
 
Just for a little context:

0ec3dae0.jpg


10c07450.jpg


Could you get into trouble in either of those places? Yeah . . . but you can get into trouble in simple open water, if you're determined to do it.
 
Just for a little context:

0ec3dae0.jpg


10c07450.jpg


Could you get into trouble in either of those places? Yeah . . . but you can get into trouble in simple open water, if you're determined to do it.

The difference is that in OW you can go straight up. Go straight up in there by seeing that light and you might not make it through one of those holes.
 
DD, I think you misread my post.

What I was trying to say was that if the place you're swimming into offers ANY possibility of severely reduced visibility, you need the skills to follow a guideline in low or zero viz, and open water divers don't have that skill. Therefore, if a guide proposes a swimthrough of a wreck or a swim into a lava tube, one of the questions should be, "What is the bottom composition, and is it possible to blow the viz?" If the answer isn't 100% sand, and no, the OW trained diver has no business in that place.

I know you are advocate for safety, but what you describe is more or less a trust me dive, even if the recreational open water divers is extremely experienced. I often take my son a ways back into an overhead on a wreck and have been doing it with him since he was 10. However, I know that the bottom is clean and the ceiling is scrubbed by enough bubbles by frequent divers that visibility should not be a problem and there is enough light to not need any lines.

But do you really expect an open water diver to ask these types of questions of another diver and even if he gets the right answers,, it is, by definition, a "trust-me" situation.

I would be much more comfortable telling open water divers to not go into deco for more than 5 minutes than to tell them to ask all these questions and then make a decsion if they still want to dive past their training and enter a cave or a wreck.
 
But, what do we do with that conclusion?
I think a lot of us would agree, but it is reaching OW divers everywhere, and making that concept stick, or making it clear to DM's all over the globe that this is not acceptable practice, that we have no way to accomplish.

or, have yet to accomplish.

I don't see how DMs (and novice divers, for that matter) don't have access to the required guidance. Every open water students reads and signs a copy of 'Safe Diving Practices'... so it's right there, clearly presented, before they ever receive a c-card for diving. PADI have that, so do SSI... I'd guess most agencies do.

"Engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience. Do not engage in cave or technical diving unless specifically trained to do so."

It seems that some people can't accept advice - at least, not without a detailed explanation. I don't understand that way of thinking... and I see it as nothing more than ego. A sense of self-importance or superiority that leads people to disregard a prudent recommendation, until the grounds for that recommendation can be proven to them with detailed evidence.

For those people, nothing short of full-cave training will be sufficient to reinforce the validity of that basic open water recommendation. Until that time, if it happens, they'll disregard it - willful ignorance.That's why I wrote my earlier post - I don't believe it's a case of "getting the message out".... but rather, a case of "getting people to heed the message".

I see enough examples in real life and here on Scubaboard of people not heeding those messages... normally exhibiting one of the factors I already mentioned - often coupled with some 'sense of resistance' against the 'scuba police' i.e. they don't like being told what to do (even though, in truth, it's only advise or a recommendation).

Thus, I don't see it as a 'failure of education', but rather a failure of the individual to apply that education. I see that as a common problem that tends to raise its head in most avoidable scuba incidents.

Where I see an opportunity for improvement is in the agency over-sight and standards attached to divemasters supervising certified divers. At the moment there is none - save a retrospective sanction against them when someone's already died.

There is no scuba police - but agencies can, and should, be more pro-active in shaping the behavior and conduct of their authorized diver leaders. Standard of conduct and operation could/should be attached to 'supervising qualified divers', in the same way they are enforced for teaching activities. After all, any contact between a DM and a qualified diver IS a form of teaching (role-modelling, development of experience).

DMs should be held accountable - to their certifying agencies - for how they do their jobs. If that conduct breaks established 'Safe Diving Practice' recommendations, then the DM should be sanctioned.
 

Back
Top Bottom