Overhead environments and open water scuba divers

[mdax]

For me it comes down to what I'd tell my daughter. OW divers do not belong anywhere there is overhead. That includes swim throughs, ginnie cavern, cenotes, wrecks...all of it. It's a very simple answer but the one that I would like her to follow until she is trained appropriately. She get's this advice at 19 and I hope she never dives with someone who would convince her otherwise.

Those folks in mexico, the four in Italy were someones sons and daughters who will never get the chance to be with them again.
I'm not sure why people bend the rules in various environments other than for money, ego or ignorance...none of which seem acceptable to me.

 

[flots am]

You have flatly stated that no OW diver should not be in ANY overhead environment. How many thousands (to be on the conservative side) of overhead environments exsist that in reality require next to none of the criteria you have listed above. Gas planning for 20'? Doesn't take much of a plan IMO. Line skills for a 10' swim through? Non silting swim kicks on a dive where there is no silt?

Gas planning for 20'? Doesn't take much of a plan IMO.

Unless you're Superman, 20' of rock is more than enough to keep you from surfacing in an emergency. A guy died near me in a wreck in less than 40' and that was just a couple of inches of wood. Unless you can do a direct ascent to the surface, it's not "Open Water" diving, and the Open Water training is insufficient to perform the dive safely.

You can do whatever makes you happy. I will continue to tell my students to stay out of places they're not trained for, even when (especially when) someone says "trust me, everything will be fine."

flots.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

.

So this offers a few ideas for assessing the risk of a proposed dive. If the overhead environment has complex ramifications (multiple navigations choices) you don't belong in there. That requires a guideline, and the ability to follow the guideline in the dark. If you can't do that, don't go in.

If the overhead environment has significant silt or other unstable sediment (or material on the walls or ceiling -- you don't have to have bottom sediments to blow the viz) then you require a guideline, and the ability to follow it in the dark. If you can't do that, you don't belong in there.


.

I find this advice of very little practical use. A typical recreational diver CAN follow a line in the dark very easily with a light. But you tell them if they can't do it, then they shouldn't be there?

A typical recreational diver can NOT follow a line in zero vis with no light. It just isn't gonna happen and I know this (and have zero overhead training)... my point is that a recreational diver may THINK they can follow a line, but in reality if something goes wrong.. there is almost zero chance they can....

I, after being an OW scuba instructor took my girl friend into a cave in florida with no line, no training and got completely lost in a tunnel with 100 ft visibility. I was absolutely sure I could deal with the conditions, knew about the dangers, knew the rules (more or less) and was certain both of us could handle it. I had done thousands of open water dives and she had done hundreds.

I was intending to go no further than I could just see a little light.... Luckily SHE did not get turned around and we were on our way out within a few moments... but is scared the hell out of me. It was a terrible feeling to be in the cave and have no idea which way to swim.. The fact that two divers died in the same cave a few hours later, while we hung out at the sight while the dead guy's wife (cluthing her little 4-yr old) begged for the bodies to be brought up ..helped to further emphasize the little lesson that I received that day.

Telling someone that they better THINK they can follow a line in the dark (or they won't be safe) is not practical advice.

I still go into overheads (in open wrecks) and in caverns just a little and I've never got any training but I am a lot more careful now.

If you are not going to go with the simple: "stay out of overheads"; then a better one might be: .. "if you have any thought that a line MIGHT be helpful", then defintely stay the hell out".

 

[gypsyjim]

This is not the first discussion on SB about "trust me" dives where unqualified, or inexperienced divers are led into situations they have no training for, and are not safe diving.

It is really easy to agree that dives into overhead or overly deep (Blue hole off Belize, or some coz wall dives come to mind) should not be done by OW or untrained/inexperienced divers. Such divers should not just follow a DM/tour guide into such situations.
But new divers do it all the time.

DM's should not lead such divers into those dives.

But DM's do and will. because they earn their $$ by satisfying the visiting diver, and new or less experienced diver simply do not comprehend the risks they are being exposed to.

The question, after all this discussion, is how to you reach the new diver with this message, effectively? They sure are supposed to be learning in OW what their limits are, but once in the real world they put their trust in the local guide/DM and they want to see the sites that that areas is known for.

All our chatting and arguing here on SB is not reaching those divers in time. What can be done differently, and, more effectively?

 

[ianr33]

All our chatting and arguing here on SB is not reaching those divers in time. What can be done differently, and, more effectively?

That's a good question.

A lot of new divers (especially young males!) are not going to make good decisions. Especially if a Dive professional tells them it's OK. If a DM took me on a dive I considered unsafe then I would just say no, but 20 years ago I would have just followed the DM

It's also obvious that every DM can not be trusted every time.

Which leaves the agencies. Who don't seem to care too much so long as they get paid.

Maybe if the insurance companies refused coverage on any shop that employed a DM that did something stupid (effectively putting the shop out of business,and the agency losing $$$) Then maybe agencies would insist that shops insist that DM don't take OW divers into caves.

I'm probably dreaming.

 

[wtcreaux]

This is not the first discussion on SB about "trust me" dives where unqualified, or inexperienced divers are led into situations they have no training for, and are not safe diving.

........

The question, after all this discussion, is how to you reach the new diver with this message, effectively? They sure are supposed to be learning in OW what their limits are, but once in the real world they put their trust in the local guide/DM and they want to see the sites that that areas is known for.

All our chatting and arguing here on SB is not reaching those divers in time. What can be done differently, and, more effectively?

I think the SCUBA world will NEVER see a zero-death year.

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), 2010 traffic deaths fell to their lowest rate and number since 1949, 1.09 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles and 32,788 deaths respectively. Traffic Fatalities in 2010 Drop to Lowest Level in Recorded History | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

In 2009 (latest figures), 10,839 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (32%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States. (per CDC, CDC - Impaired Driving Facts - Motor Vehicle Safety - Injury Center)

So.........we KNOW that drinking and driving ain't the smartest thing to be doing but people continue to do such and, for some, die.

This is human nature.....the ain't/won't happen to me syndrome.......the "don't know what you don't know" scenario.......the "trust me" scenario......"I've drove (dove) that way many times, and I'm still alive"........etc, etc, etc........

IMHO, ALL I can do is teach (informally as I am NOT a SCUBA instructor) those around me the best I can, constantly asking questions (knowledge-based and scenarios), demand strict adherence to protocol, and set an example (my daughter will ALWAYS see/hear me going through a pre-dive checklist or thumb a dive if needed).........YMMV.........I know some may disagree but the 1st rule of rescue is ???????

 

[DevonDiver]

IMHO, there are three reasons why divers exceed their qualifications and enter dangerous environments:

1) Peer Pressure
2) Ego
3) Denial

Peer Pressure - Coercion, whether positive or negative, direct or indirect, into carrying out a dive/s that the individual is not comfortable with and would otherwise not choose to do. This is especially likely when the 'coercer' holds a position of respect and authority; i.e. a dive pro.

Ego - The simple over-estimation of one's capabilities in relation to the demands of the task to be undertaken. "I can handle it".

Denial - The inverse of Ego, this is the under-estimation of the demands of the task to be undertaken, in relation to one's abilities. "What could possibly go wrong?" "It won't happen to me".

Often added to these three factors is the existence of ignorance. Put simply, a failure to appreciate and understand the risks; thus allowing ego or denial (or both) to manifest and cause poor decision making.. I won't list it as a 'reason', because one, or more, of the other factors has to exist for ignorance to contribute to a decision making process. If the other factors didn't exist, then ignorance would be resolved through education, or at least, a diver might err on the side of caution.

 

[TSandM]

DD, I think you misread my post.

What I was trying to say was that if the place you're swimming into offers ANY possibility of severely reduced visibility, you need the skills to follow a guideline in low or zero viz, and open water divers don't have that skill. Therefore, if a guide proposes a swimthrough of a wreck or a swim into a lava tube, one of the questions should be, "What is the bottom composition, and is it possible to blow the viz?" If the answer isn't 100% sand, and no, the OW trained diver has no business in that place.

 

[graham_s]

Haven't seen too many "clips" in a pistol....... magazines yes, clips no. Maybe you can enlighten me which pistols have clips, yes?

Mauser C96 (Broomhandle Mauser)


I have done a few wreck penetrations and caves/tunnels.
Every time I've used a guide line reel.
Every member of the party was always briefed fully and there were plans and procedures in place.

 

[gypsyjim]

DD, I think you misread my post.

What I was trying to say was that if the place you're swimming into offers ANY possibility of severely reduced visibility, you need the skills to follow a guideline in low or zero viz, and open water divers don't have that skill. Therefore, if a guide proposes a swimthrough of a wreck or a swim into a lava tube, one of the questions should be, "What is the bottom composition, and is it possible to blow the viz?" If the answer isn't 100% sand, and no, the OW trained diver has no business in that place.

But, what do we do with that conclusion?
I think a lot of us would agree, but it is reaching OW divers everywhere, and making that concept stick, or making it clear to DM's all over the globe that this is not acceptable practice, that we have no way to accomplish.

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or, have yet to accomplish.