"Overfilling" faber lp 85,95

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The PST 95 and E8-119 are still not the same tank.

They have similar dimensions and similar weight, but not identical. Obviously PST has changed something.

As to the original poster, chances are that your regular 3000 psi overfills will not harm you. However, they are 'illegal' if you're paying for them, and obviously they are more likely to blow up on you or fail hydro early.

I also highly doubt that the "same" tanks are stamped for high pressure service in Europe. If tanks of similar dimensions or sizes are available in high pressure versions in Europe, they are doubtess different tanks.

Either way, you're looking for someone to tell you "oh, it's ok, overfill them" because you don't want to spend the money on better tanks. Some people may oblige, but they're doing you a disservice.

Do what you feel is right.
 
Jason B:
I think he was refering to the PST 95 as being similar to the PST E8-119, not the Faber 95.

Jason

Even if the poster was refering to PST LP 95s, those cylinders were manufactured using a DOT 3AA designation and are different from the Exemption 9791 alloy being used for older HP series cylinders and E series cylinders.

Sorry for any added confusion.

Chris
 
Faber LP 85's & 95's are rated at 2400psi + 10%
OMS used to put "tested to 10000 fills (cylces) to 4000 psi" (or words to that effect) in their adds for their OMS branded Fabers.
They are routinely overfilled to 3000 - 3500 psi in cave country.
I don't recommend overfilling them.
S
 
Sphyrna:
Faber LP 85's & 95's are rated at 2400psi + 10%
OMS used to put "tested to 10000 fills (cylces) to 4000 psi" (or words to that effect) in their adds for their OMS branded Fabers.
They are routinely overfilled to 3000 - 3500 psi in cave country.
I don't recommend overfilling them.
S
Thing you have to remember about fatigue/crack prop testing is that the rate of filling and emptying also comes into play. I would think that those fill/empty load cycles are faster than we would require for diving, with the possibility of the tanks being under full pressure for a period before being used. Then of course you have rate of filling, heating of the metal due to that - all sorts of variables beyond the testing they may have done that makes that claim a little misleading.
 
simbrooks:
Thing you have to remember about fatigue/crack prop testing is that the rate of filling and emptying also comes into play. I would think that those fill/empty load cycles are faster than we would require for diving, with the possibility of the tanks being under full pressure for a period before being used. Then of course you have rate of filling, heating of the metal due to that - all sorts of variables beyond the testing they may have done that makes that claim a little misleading.


It is my understanding that ALL cylinders (test sample) are required to pass a minimum of 10,000 fill cycles @ hydo. We are currently well past 10,000 fill cycles on our new Worthington cylinders and counting.
 
Are you involved with Worthington?

What's the latest on the coating? I remember a post by I think FredT about how they were rethinking the painted coating.
 
jonnythan:
Are you involved with Worthington?

What's the latest on the coating? I remember a post by I think FredT about how they were rethinking the painted coating.

First one's out are twin arc galvanized with two coats powder (baked on). We are exploring other options. I own Sea Pearls and have been working with Worthington to develop our new line of cylinders.
 
Leadking:
It is my understanding that ALL cylinders (test sample) are required to pass a minimum of 10,000 fill cycles @ hydo. We are currently well past 10,000 fill cycles on our new Worthington cylinders and counting.
The message i was trying to get through was about testing conditions vs real life conditions, there is no way they will be the same. I have some education in metallurgy and materials testing, just trying to put it in laymans when people start quoting these high figures.
 
simbrooks:
Thing you have to remember about fatigue/crack prop testing is that the rate of filling and emptying also comes into play....all sorts of variables beyond the testing they may have done that makes that claim a little misleading.

Agreed.

What most people don't realize is that the Accepted Practices in Engineering call for using a value of 10e7 to estimate a product's stress Fatigue Limit, and if you look at a typical fatigue cycling curve, they tend to look like this:

http://www.statisticalengineering.com/rfl3.htm

As you can see, 10,000 fills = 10e4, and the stress value there is roughly 100 on this scale, but by the time you move out to the fatigue limit, its less than 60% of this value.

Hmmm... 4000psi * .60 = 2400psi. Now where have we seen that number before? :)


And this is only half the story. Even if it wasn't illegal to overfill tanks...ask yourself what the long term implications of it are.

You see, as divers, we buy tanks and use them for a number of years. If they don't go bad, we sell them used. The next guy does the same thing. So does the guy after that and so on. The problem is that none of us keep any documentation except for a VIP/Hydro to indicate what the history of the tank is...everyone in the chain simply assumes that the guy who owned the tank before him used it within the DOT limits and that it was properly designed to last forever in the first place.

What upsets this practice are overfills. Now the tanks won't last forever anymore, but have a very much shortened life. And while 10,000 dives might sound a lot to some of us, but across two or three diver's careers, its no longer implausible.

The net result of us buying and selling tanks with no documentation means that when that tank's number finally comes up, its probably not going to be you or me who pays the price, but one of our grandkids who catches the metal in their face.

So what can be done about this?

Well, we can try to claim that we're not responsible, even though the original root cause were our overfills causing excessive fatigue damage. This argument will probably try to take the approach that this is why we have Hydro tests.

But since Hydro's are based on certain assumptions on how the tank was being used (ie, properly!), who knows if the Hydro really has any reliable chance of detecting the impending failiure in time. In other words, this is an lame excuse.


The other alternative is to make sure that it can't possibly ever become a problem. We do this by sucking it up and doing the ethical thing, which is to make sure that the tank never gets used by anyone else down the road. And this is actually very simple to accomplish: when we're done using the tank, we destroy the tank rather than allow it to leave our control by selling it.

While we're at it, it would be smart if we permanently marked the tank with an indicator of "NonStandard Use - Destroy" and keep a dedicated equipment logbook that documents every time the tank has a nonstandard fill, plus every standard fill after the first nonstandard one. Just in case we're not around to instruct people what to do with the tank.

Now this does require extra work and extra expense, but it is a way to Ethically Do It Right to prevent some future innocent diver from possibly getting hurt or killed as a result of our actions of overfilling a tank today.



-hh
 
Are these Faber LP 95's in the USA the exact same tanks that Europe fills to 3500 or so pounds?
If so other than being a "Johnny do right" what is the logic be in not filling them as the Europeans do?
Are the Europeans having any problems with these fills?
Are their inspections on a different schedule?
I agree it is wise to error on the caution side but if all things (proven facts) are equal I can see the arguement that "big brother" is trying to over govern us yet once more.

Just because I'm paraniod doesn't mean they are not trying to get me :)
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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