OUPV Limitations

[Mike Ange]

There is some confusion between documenting a vessel and certifying it for multi passenger use. Any vessel can be documented - this is more of an issue for insurers and other carriage legalities. For the various certifications there are a huge number of additional requirments ranging from the types of construction materials that are permitted to the safety equipment carried on board. For example a fibeglass hulled yacht may be refused certification if it is not constructed with flame retardant fiberglass - but it will almost certainly be documented. We ran a 42' vessel with 36 tons displacement as a documented but uncertified vessel as a part of our charter services because the hull did not meet certification requirements for multi-passenger service. Electronics, safety equipment etc can be upgraded but in some cases that is not enough to meet certification requirements. This has nothing to do with documenting the vessel.

 

[captndale]

There is some confusion between documenting a vessel and certifying it for multi passenger use. Any vessel can be documented -

There certainly is a great deal of confusion and misinformation throughout this thread.

Not any vessel may be documented but a vessel must be documented to receive a Certificate of Inspection (COI).

To be documented, a vessel must be of a certain minimum size (I am not sure what size this is but I think is is 27 ft LOA.) and it must have been constructed in the USA. It must also be owned by a US citizen or US citizen owned entity and never have been owned by a foreign national. A documented vessel is a flag vessel of the United States and has conferred upon her certain privledges, duties and obligations as given by statute and treaty.

 

[ComputerJoe]

Well here, in the 9th District, the USCG is requiring any comercial vessel >5tons to be documented. This regulation has been on the books but unenforced for some time. Michigan Charter Boat Association Compliance Issues

So I say again passenger commercial Vessel >5tons = Documented vessel.
Documented Vessel = a tonage license (25, 50, 100, no OUPV on a documented vessel)

 

[captndale]

Well here, in the 9th District, the USCG is requiring any comercial vessel >5tons to be documented. This regulation has been on the books but unenforced for some time. Michigan Charter Boat Association Compliance Issues

So I say again passenger commercial Vessel >5tons = Documented vessel.
Documented Vessel = a tonage license (25, 50, 100, no OUPV on a documented vessel)

While it is true that the USCG requires that commercial vessels over 5 tons be documented it is not true that any vessel may be documented. It is also not true that a tonnage license (Master) is required to operate a documented vessel that is not inspected. An individual who holds an OUPV may operate a documented vessel that does not have a COI and is under 100 tons. Reference 46CFR15.605

 

[Mike Ange]

There certainly is a great deal of confusion and misinformation throughout this thread.

Not any vessel may be documented but a vessel must be documented to receive a Certificate of Inspection (COI).

To be documented, a vessel must be of a certain minimum size (I am not sure what size this is but I think is is 27 ft LOA.) and it must have been constructed in the USA. It must also be owned by a US citizen or US citizen owned entity and never have been owned by a foreign national. A documented vessel is a flag vessel of the United States and has conferred upon her certain privledges, duties and obligations as given by statute and treaty.

Thanks CaptnDale - You are correct, my statement was too broad. I should have stated that "any vessel that meets the legal requirements can be documented".

I was just focussed on the misuse of the term "documented" in relationship to the COI discussion and I guess I added to the confusion instead of clarifying it! - Sorry.

 

[divezonescuba]

There certainly is a great deal of confusion and misinformation throughout this thread.

Not any vessel may be documented but a vessel must be documented to receive a Certificate of Inspection (COI).

To be documented, a vessel must be of a certain minimum size (I am not sure what size this is but I think is is 27 ft LOA.) and it must have been constructed in the USA. It must also be owned by a US citizen or US citizen owned entity and never have been owned by a foreign national. A documented vessel is a flag vessel of the United States and has conferred upon her certain privledges, duties and obligations as given by statute and treaty.

A vessel does not need to be constructed in the US to be documented. My sailboat was made in England and clearly states so on the documentation form. It also has the statement "foreign built" on it. The closest US constructed requirement is the Jones Act which requires a vessel that is chartered to have been constructed in the US. However, even that can be bypassed with the correct application process and the submission of the appropriate fee.

 

[captndale]

A vessel does not need to be constructed in the US to be documented. My sailboat was made in England and clearly states so on the documentation form. It also has the statement "foreign built" on it. The closest US constructed requirement is the Jones Act which requires a vessel that is chartered to have been constructed in the US. However, even that can be bypassed with the correct application process and the submission of the appropriate fee.

Thanks for the correction. I guess its my turn to apologize for getting it wrong. I did not look that one up. I inferred the rule from what I went through to get my boat re-documented when I bought it, It had been documented when it was built but the previous owner had let the documentation lapse.

The laws and government regulations are complex, sometimes difficult to find and sometimes contratictory. In addition to that there are interpretations that are sometimes printed and sometimes just in the minds of those doing the enforcement. For most of us, our knowledge of how government rules affect us is gotten from what we hear or read from others who are no more authorities than we are. I have found it best to try to look up the source document (usually the CFR) and read it directly to truly understand a regulation. Often even those in the government who are charged with the responsibility of interpreting the regulations will give you the wrong answers. (e.g. The IRS gives wrong answers about 60% of the time on their help line.) Then again, if you piss off the bureaucrats they can almost always find a way to get you.

 

[ComputerJoe]

While it is true that the USCG requires that commercial vessels over 5 tons be documented it is not true that any vessel may be documented. It is also not true that a tonnage license (Master) is required to operate a documented vessel that is not inspected. An individual who holds an OUPV may operate a documented vessel that does not have a COI and is under 100 tons. Reference 46CFR15.605

I hate beating this one any more but just to clarify the twists and turns. I understand that a documented boat, less than 100 tons, without an inspection (COI) because it is not being used for passenger service can be operated with an OUPV (an 80 ton yacht). But if the same boat was being put into passenger service a Master License with appropriate tonage would be called for. Then the only "passenger" vessel a OUPV could operate is one less than 5 ton, carring less than 7 passegers and uninspected by the USCG. Or is it the number of passengers that triggers a COI requirement and then the tonnage license. So if you took the 80 ton yacht and only used it as a 6 pak a OUPV would do?

 

[Tortuga James]

Or is it the number of passengers that triggers a COI requirement and then the tonnage license. So if you took the 80 ton yacht and only used it as a 6 pak a OUPV would do?

I think that sums it up.

While doing research during this discussion, I kept reading that the USCG requires commercial vessels greater than 5 tons to be documented. What constitutes a commercial use? When I had my boat documented, I went to the best maritime lawyer in Carteret County and explained what I wanted to do with the vessel. He guided me to a recreational with a coastwise trade endorsement. When I told him that I wanted to commercial tuna fish this past winter, he applied for a fisheries endorsement. Does passenger service for recreational diving and fishing qualify as commercial? This attorney didn't think so.

Plenty of 50' Sportfishing boats run 6 pack charters (with OUPV MMC) in non-documented, uninspected state registered boats here in NC.

I agree with Capt Dale, trying to understand all this is mind numbing. I just want to take people diving and fishing.

 

[boydski]

Or is it the number of passengers that triggers a COI requirement and then the tonnage license.

That matches my understanding as well. If the vessel is not inspected, and is less than 100 tons, it can be operated with up to six passengers by an Operator (OUPV). If the vessel IS inspected or carries more than six passengers, then a Master's license is required.

Here's some of the OH SO FUN legal text from the Code of Federal Regulations:

TITLE 46--SHIPPING

CHAPTER I--COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

PART 15_MANNING REQUIREMENTS--Table of Contents

Subpart E_Manning Requirements; Uninspected Vessels

Sec. 15.605 Licensed operators for uninspected passenger vessels.

Each uninspected passenger vessel must be under the direction and
control of an individual licensed by the Coast Guard as follows:
(a) Every self-propelled, uninspected vessel as defined by 46 U.S.C.
2101(42)(B), carrying not more than six passengers, must be under the
direction and control of an individual holding a license as operator.
(b) Every uninspected passenger vessel of 100 gross tons or more, as
defined by 46 U.S.C. 2101(42)(A), must be under the direction and
control of a licensed master, pilot, or mate as appropriate.

US Code:

(42) Uninspected passenger vessel means an uninspected vessel
(A) of at least 100 gross tons as measured under section 14502 of this title, or an alternate tonnage measured under section 14302 of this title as prescribed by the Secretary under section 14104 of this title
(i) carrying not more than 12 passengers, including at least one passenger for hire; or
(ii) that is chartered with the crew provided or specified by the owner or the owner representative and carrying not more than 12 passengers; and
(B) of less than 100 gross tons as measured under section 14502 of this title, or an alternate tonnage measured under section 14302 of this title as prescribed by the Secretary under section 14104 of this title
(i) carrying not more than 6 passengers, including at least one passenger for hire; or
(ii) that is chartered with the crew provided or specified by the owner or the owner representative and carrying not more than 6 passengers.