Opinions on DSAT TecRec courses

[uncleavi]

If DSAT made a diver equal to an EMT-P and a BUDS Graduate someone would still complain.
I did most of my Tech training with ANDI and NAUI and I wonder who will comment about how bad they are.

 

[AndyNZ]

Hmmm GUE fundies is indeed expensive....but everyone who has taken it says it is worth it....

I'd say that Fundies was worth it - price point was $1200 when I did mine.

It was interesting doing Fundies after having done TDI courses - I didn't "learn" much new, a little bit on depth averaging, ratio deco etc but what I did get was a different way of applying knowledge, and a different critique of competency.

It was particularly nice, as the instructor did start throwing in some interesting skill combinations - getting pushed was really useful, in the sense that you see where you (as an individual) break down, and how this effects a team dynamic.

I'd recommend Fundies to anyone. even at the upper end of the price range. In fact, probably more so as when you look at those GUE instructors charging more for it and see the experience your getting access to...

I'm curious, what did most of you do first, tech diving in ow or cave (for those that have done both)? A question for anyone (GUE, TDI, IANTD etc)

Cave doesn't really apply, we're short of decent caves here unless you count Pearse Resurgance - which is out of my league anyway - so it was open water, but with a view for extended wreck penetration. Even if we are short of caves, we are blessed with some accessible wrecks.

 

[Bismark]

For what it's worth, valve drills whilst kneeling are actually really hard - harder than when in trim, because the tanks tend to slip further down the back and make them harder to reach. It's really the same entry point as doing surface drills, because it's teaching the mechanics of the valve drill rather than practicalities of not fighting with your kit under water.

I find this statement a bit perplexing. If we are trying to teach a student the procedure of a valve drill, you can do this quite easily by zip tying your regs to the back of your backplate and doing this while standing with your buddy watching you. Doing this procedure while kneeling accomplishes nothing other than to teach the wrong muscle memory as, like you state, the tanks tend to slip down further and make them harder to reach. We are not trying to make this harder, we are trying to emphasize that you must be able to perform this skill WHILE maintaining buoyancy and trim. Failure to emphasize this latter portion makes doing the drill while kneeling a complete waste of time or worse, building muscle memory for something they should never be learning anyways. Practise the mechanics on land.

 

[wedivebc]

I find this statement a bit perplexing. If we are trying to teach a student the procedure of a valve drill, you can do this quite easily by zip tying your regs to the back of your backplate and doing this while standing with your buddy watching you.
.

Can you explain how this works. I don't get the tying thing?

Doing this procedure while kneeling accomplishes nothing other than to teach the wrong muscle memory as, like you state, the tanks tend to slip down further and make them harder to reach. We are not trying to make this harder, we are trying to emphasize that you must be able to perform this skill WHILE maintaining buoyancy and trim. Failure to emphasize this latter portion makes doing the drill while kneeling a complete waste of time or worse, building muscle memory for something they should never be learning anyways. Practise the mechanics on land.

I agree, there is no point learning skill while kneeling. The most important and fundamental skill in tech diving is trim and buoyancy control. No point attempting other skills before mastering the basics.

 

[Bismark]

Can you explain how this works. I don't get the tying thing?



I agree, there is no point learning skill while kneeling. The most important and fundamental skill in tech diving is trim and buoyancy control. No point attempting other skills before mastering the basics.

You don't get the feedback from actually turning the valves per se, however, you can practise the change over of light from hand to hand and the clipping and unclipping of the long hose when you breath it down etc. Just a way to get the procedure and order of things down pat. Take a couple of zip ties and tie your first stages in the more or less appropriate positions on the back plate with the zip ties. Then the hoses will go in the correct directions and come from the right places. Then just put the BP/W on over your t-shirt and have at it. Works very well for practising the S-drill with two people also. You get instant feedback because you can talk and hear what is being said, etc. Might not work with your re-breather........how do you donate your loop These work very well for the GUE drills but I don't see why they couldn't work for any drills, including independent doubles I think. Sorry I don't know the procedure for donating gas in all situations. Do you always practice donating the long hose, even if you are breathing from the left post and your long hose is clipped off, or am I making some assumptions about gear arrangement that are inapropriate for independent doubles? Real questions, not trying to be sarcastic.

 

[grazie42]

I did my first courses with an IANTD instructor (adv.rec.tmx->tmx & adv. wreck->tech wreck) and I think it makes a lot of sense to do the "decompression courses" in conjunction with an "enviroment course". Besides making the dives a lot more fun (I got to dive wrecks on my course) it also gives you the oppurtunity to ask questions about dive planning/procedures that are specific to the diving that you want to do...

Same with the cave courses I´ve taken, the instructor was obliged to talk about diveplanning, logistics etc and how the cave enviroment impacts those aspects...

It just seems like taking decompression "out of context" means that you loose out on information that is useful and also places a bit of a burden on whatever instructor ends up teaching those courses later...

As to "skill levels", while I do agree that instructors shouldn´t pass "unfit divers", I also think that to be diving at this level you need to take responsibility for your own learning and safety and either ask for more instruction (and pay more if that´s what it takes) or to go away and practice on your own after the course and not do those dives until you are "fit to dive"...whatever course you take, whatever the "minimum standards" are, there´s a reason why they are called MINIMUM standards...

 

[AndyNZ]

I find this statement a bit perplexing. If we are trying to teach a student the procedure of a valve drill, you can do this quite easily by zip tying your regs to the back of your backplate and doing this while standing with your buddy watching you. Doing this procedure while kneeling accomplishes nothing other than to teach the wrong muscle memory as, like you state, the tanks tend to slip down further and make them harder to reach.

I'm not suggesting that it's the right approach, but it is trying to do the same thing as surface drills.

It wouldn't be my choice of approach if I was teaching it - I just got the impresssion that people thought it was "easy" and only being able to do valve drills whilst kneeling are not ready for tech training, whereas in reality it's not what I would think is the best option.

 

[TSandM]

ZG, I did Fundies in a single tank, and took six months to pass it (in a single tank). I then transitioned into doubles and took UTD Rec 2, followed by GUE Rec Triox (which I didn't pass). I then took NAUI Helitrox (which I passed) and TDI Cavern/Intro (which I passed). Most recently, I took GUE Cave 1 (and passed that, too).

I think GUE Fundamentals does an absolutely SUPERB job of giving the student an idea of what kind of skills it takes to move on to decompression or overhead diving, and my friend Rick Inman has told me his IANTD Tech instructor told him that taking Fundies was the best possible preparation he could have had for his IANTD classes. For the OP, the Zero Gravity guys are very nice people, and at least Danny and Fred are truly excellent instructors (I haven't taking any instruction from Chris, but I have friends who rave about him, too.)

If you haven't been diving with technical divers or cave divers, doing a class like Fundies to begin with will give you a very good reality check on where your diving is in comparison with what you need to dive under a deco obligation, or in caves. Fundies has no failures, but you are required to do valve drills and air-sharing drills, and do mask skills and no-mask swims and precise ascents. Your personal skills (ability to perform all skills/drills with good buoyancy and trim) are assessed, but in addition, your TEAM skills are assessed -- how well do you communicate, and do you maintain your awareness of surroundings and team while you are handling something which is personally stressful?

It's an excellent class. I'd recommend it to anybody, and my guess is that you would get one of the best Fundies classes you could get, if you get it from the ZG guys, who know precisely why you need to be good at the basics, because they are teaching through Cave 3 and DPV and see the results of not having one's basics solid. Just be aware, it's an expensive class.

 

[gr8fuldiverNC]

Heres my two cents..... I am a long time PADI instructor, did DSAT up to Trimix a few times (I sat in), and just became an IANTD Adv. Rec Trimix Instructor, and just did my first rebreather cert with IANTD. So I have recent experience as a student and instructor... Here are some general observations, this is just my opinion based on my experiences.

IANTD... the materials vary. that is they have tons of good info, but no organization at all. Much of it very hard reading, technical essays and theory. tests and books and answer keys dont match up, all in different stages of development. Some info too vague, other info too in depth. IANTD says this will all be worked out this year. Presentation slides are good. Required water skills are good too, and the grading system/peformance requirements are great. But skills are not previewed in a video or in the book, not well integrated at all. A good instructor is key here.
They are really big on rebreathers, so a good choice if youre going that direction. Smaller agency, but the original tec agency, so pretty well known. Go to ProTec in Playa, they have a great reputation, Id train with Matt any day.

TDI- dont really know much about them. Advanced nitrox manual is exactly like PADI nitrox (but higher o2 limit), so pretty good. My boss is a IANTD and TDI IT, doesnt teach TDI due to problems with getting certs processed. I never finished the Adv nitrox class, cause the instructor (different shop) was terrible in the water, on the other hand the best oc diver I know is TDI (and GUE).
A good instructor is important here.
They are (were?) the biggest tech agency, especially in asia, so for working it might be a good idea.

DSAT-materials are awesome of course, but a little over simplified and goofy. The deco/gas planning section is the best ive seen. Skills well integrated with academics, and previewed in a movie. But they fall down on required skills and performance requirements. Finning has been addressed by others here, its a serious oversight. Skills are not broken down for students or instructors (unlike in PADI DM programs) anywhere that Ive seen. You can get an excellent DSAT class, but a good instructor is especially key here, and that usually means they teach for another agency too, with better skills requirements that they will incorporate (the whole finning thing again) into the course. I think the minimum skills requirements have the potential for turning out incomplete tech divers, who may become incomplete instructors. The agency is looked down on by much of the tech community (a lot of that is political), but it will soon be the largest one.

All the agencies have different philosopies on equipment, gasses for deco, etc...you should research this and find one that suits you. The most important thing is what they all have in common, and that is you have to have a good instructor.

This is all just my opinion based on my recent experiences. Others will have had different experiences. I dont know about other agencies, and wont speculate, other than to say GUE will have the best skills, and fundies will make you a better diver, regardless of what agency you do tech with.

 

[rongoodman]

If DSAT made a diver equal to an EMT-P and a BUDS Graduate someone would still complain.
I did most of my Tech training with ANDI and NAUI and I wonder who will comment about how bad they are.

I hear a lot about how good PADI/DSAT materials are, but whoever let those texts and DVD out the door with all the pictures of divers out of trim or on their knees did a disservice to a young program.

As to some suggestions which seem a little off, like how to shoot a bag, or some of the equipment choices, they're very similar to what you'd see discussed in a BSAC forum--things can be different across the pond.