Open Water Certifications – Cold vs Warm

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This is exactly what I wanted to say. I started and trained in Monterey. When I went to Hawaii and Thailand, I feel the transition is easy. I may have, if lucky, a chance to dive a colder place later this year. I will keep this thread in mind, come back and report my experience.
But eelnoraa, wasn't it you who reported here on SB after a Thailand trip about the currents? It's been a long time, but I seem to recall you saying you "needed" to wear gloves because the currents were knocking you around and you had to hang on. I never have to wear gloves here, and I never have to hang on to keep from being tossed around, so in that respect, who's the more skilled diver: the cold-water trained one from Monterey who has to hang on while wearing gloves or the warm water trained one who can deal with the current? I would say neither, since skill development is linked to conditions. I am skilled in diving in currents and you're skilled in coping with the equipment requirements of cold water. As TSandM eloquently puts it, an unfamiliar environment can show any of us up as unskilled. If that was you, then you lacked the warm water skill of dealing with current. And as for me, I freely admit to finding cold water challenging. Plus I have particular trouble with surf entries and exits like those in California while wearing all that gear. I still lack confidence with these, even though I have done a number of them--I feel like the lowliest of newbies when faced with a surf entry in cold water. But currents? No sweat!
 
Cold water makes mastering buoyancy extremely difficult. Around here it's common for a drysuit diver to be wearing 30 lbs of lead and dive large steel tanks. That equates to a very large gas bubble that needs to be managed and that's for a diver that's properly weighted.

I've seen OW students in 7mm wetsuits and HP100's wearing over 50 lbs of lead. With that kind of overweighting there's no chance in hell they'll develop any real buoyancy control in just a couple of class dives. I had a shop manager tell me about a student that lost his weight belt during a dive but had so much lead in his BC that he didn't even notice.

Now once we do master our buoyancy we tend to be very good at it, but that usually takes 50 dives or more.
 
In NZ wearing 7mm suits, I saw a lot more 'tropical' divers corking at the surface than the other way around. Control in the shallows is important, and for this reason alone, I would call a cold water beginner 'better' when changing climates. They have more awareness/experience of the radical expansion of neoprene in the last 25'.
LOL, I see the same thing here, but in reverse. However, it only happens when we relieve the cold water divers of all the excess weight they initially strap onto themselves and get them weighted correctly for their thin wetsuits. They just don't seem to be able to hold a stop without corking and they complain back on the boat that they need more weight! (This is mainly Russians, though, I have to admit.)
 
Yes, that was me. It was my first time diving Similan Island. The issue I had was with unexpected current around boulders in a few dive sites. Had I know about the kind of current I would encounter, I will just stay a bit further from walls and boulders. On top of this, too many divers nearby also made manuvering harder. So I got pushed onto rocks side way a few times. Nothing major at all, I had more concern about breaking coral and things off if I tried to heli turn and swam away. Compared to other divers in my group, inclduing DMs and instructors, they used some kind of stick or hook to hang on. I think I was more not unprepared and caught by surprised. So I totally agree that being familiar to the site is very important.

On the other hand, buoyancy and holding stop in any depth was much easier than in drysuit, thick undies and 20+lb of weight. In Monterey, I need to stare at my gauge or some reference object at shallower stops (20', 10'), and make adjustment if I start to drift away. I need to work hard to archive 10'/30s ascent. In Thailand and Hawaii, this kind of manuver came with a lot less effort. This is even true when I was using rental BC.




But eelnoraa, wasn't it you who reported here on SB after a Thailand trip about the currents? It's been a long time, but I seem to recall you saying you "needed" to wear gloves because the currents were knocking you around and you had to hang on. I never have to wear gloves here, and I never have to hang on to keep from being tossed around, so in that respect, who's the more skilled diver: the cold-water trained one from Monterey who has to hang on while wearing gloves or the warm water trained one who can deal with the current? I would say neither, since skill development is linked to conditions. I am skilled in diving in currents and you're skilled in coping with the equipment requirements of cold water. As TSandM eloquently puts it, an unfamiliar environment can show any of us up as unskilled. If that was you, then you lacked the warm water skill of dealing with current. And as for me, I freely admit to finding cold water challenging. Plus I have particular trouble with surf entries and exits like those in California while wearing all that gear. I still lack confidence with these, even though I have done a number of them--I feel like the lowliest of newbies when faced with a surf entry in cold water. But currents? No sweat!
 
Having taught all of my open water classes here in Puget Sound, I’ve always felt that there should be separate open water certs for cold water vs warm water diving. Either that or something like an Open Water Cert with a cold water “endorsement”.

In my opinion, a properly trained cold water diver will easily adapt to and handle warm water conditions. On the other hand, that same person as a properly trained warm water diver may find the added equipment and typically harsher environmental conditions such as thermal considerations, general visibility, typically increased tidal and current activity, etc… to be overwhelming and possibly dangerous.

Not saying that this is the case with every diver. Just in general.


I guess my point is that I personally don’t think it’s a great idea to train someone to drive a car using a little Hyundai with an automatic transmission, and then have them go out and drive a one ton crew cab with a 5 speed. However, the same person who learned to drive in the 5 speed truck will always be able to easily handle the little automatic Hyundai.

No real question here… just thought it might be worth discussing.

So what's your solution? People should only learn to dive in cold water? Probably wouldn't hurt your income any... ;)

I certainly wouldn't deny that diving in cold water is a wholly different game, and everyone we certify here (for complicated reasons, quite a lot of them are from the UK) gets the 'You have been trained in extremely benign conditions. You WILL need guidance and mentoring in order to transfer your skills to cold/low-viz/high-current/insert-different-environment-here conditions' chat at the end of the course. But are the divers we train worse than those who've learned in harsher conditions? I've seen plenty of temperate-water divers with large numbers of dives crashing about the reefs and demonstrating minimal dive skills here, which leads me to believe they aren't...
 
So what's your solution? People should only learn to dive in cold water? Probably wouldn't hurt your income any...

Just offering a personal opinion and having a discussion. As for income, I never taught for the $$. May sound a bit Korny, but I actually became an instructor for the challenge and the passion and enjoyed many great years of teaching and making lifelong friends. "Koom-by-ya".

I'm now push'n 60, retired from teaching and on inactive status. One of the main reasons for that decision was the implementation of the weekend certification course offerred by my shop and my "agency". Didn't agree with it, still don't, and never will... but that's probably a whole "nuther" discussion.
 
Based on what I observe (as a non-pro) with respect to guided dives in our dive park, those with training in or primary experience diving in the tropics generally do not do as well as those trained in cold water. I find it a real vacation during winter when I can travel to the tropics and dive all day long without the need for a thick wetsuit, hooded vest, gloves or 10 "extra" pounds of lead.
 
As with so many things, it depends on a lot of different variables that have to be taken into account before you can say one type of training will produce better divers than the other.

Where I dive in Puget Sound, the exigencies of thick wetsuit or drysuit for your initial training increase the challenge of learning buoyancy control. But the reality is that because of that, many people don't really learn it ... they muddle through a class, doing by rote with instructors who accept just enough to check the box on the list, because they don't really have time for "mastery". Will these divers do any better in tropical conditions? Not really ... because they never really learned buoyancy control in the first place, so using less exposure equipment will simplify their gear but it won't really help them control their buoyancy.

I think in this respect you have to put some caveats by saying that people who are used to diving in cold water ... or who were trained by someone who puts emphasis on proper skills development ... will have an easier time transitioning to warm water. But they have to show up with the skills at least modestly developed ... which won't always be the case.

Also consider environment. Puget Sound is cold, murky, and often can hit you with strong currents and large tidal exchanges ... this past week-end we had 12-foot exchanges, and later this month we'll have 16-foot exchanges. That much moving water presents its own challenges that you don't normally get in tropical places, because they just don't get those sort of tides. On the other hand, our idea of surf here is when the ferry goes by ... it doesn't in any way prepare you for the type of entries you might be faced with in some nice, tropical places like Hawaii ... where a mistimed entry can have you rolling in the surf zone wondering how you're going to get up and where your fins went.

On the other hand, I spend a significant part of my teaching time working with divers who are transitioning from warmer climes to Puget Sound ... and the most common complaint I hear from them is that they didn't have this much trouble learning buoyancy control in the tropics. Of course not ... wearing a drysuit means managing an additional, and significant, air bubble. Putting on a hood inhibits your ability to hear, and can feel more confining. Wearing dry gloves or heavy neoprene gloves removes your ability to feel anything with your fingers, and inhibits dexterity when it comes to manipulating your gear. And regardless of wet or dry, adding exposure gear inhibits your flexibility and means more lead to make it all sink ... and both of those issues will make even the simple skills you mastered for tropical diving more difficult ... until you learn new behaviors for dealing with it. And that takes time and practice.

It affects other skills as well ... one of the hardest things that people have to learn when they come here is that buddies have to swim pretty close together, watch each other constantly, and position themselves so they can stay in visual contact with each other. Either that, or prepare for a solo dive ... because if you buddy up like most tropical folks do, you'll be "solo" diving in no time. On the other hand, people who learn buddy skills in low vis conditions tend not to get lost or separated in the more user-friendly conditions of the tropics. They will, however, have to make some uncomfortable adjustments when it comes to going on guided dives where they're diving with several other people ... and that presents its own challenges to people who are used to only seeing each other during most of the dive.

And that's really the crux ... going in either direction requires making adjustments to different equipment and environment. Some adjustments are easier to make than others ... but that really depends on the individual ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Personally, I see this whole 'cold vs. warm water' issue as an excuse for snobbery.

Cold water divers tend to be very committed to the sport of diving; willing to accept conditions that a majority of (vacation-only) divers are not. Being prepared to dive locally means that they enjoy more access to frequent diving.

Frequent diving helps promote accelerated skill retention and experience acquisition. That experience/skill acquisition is not the product of the environment, but the frequency of diving. Similarly high levels of skill/experience acquisition would be noted in warm-water based divers who had access to comparable frequency of diving opportunity.

Frequent diving tends to expose divers to a wider range of environmental variables. That is equally true of cold or warm water. Here in the Philippines, a 'frequent diver' will experience low visibility and/or rough water diving during monsoon season. I've encountered equally bad visibility, rougher sea states and stronger currents in the tropics than I did in temperate seas. Some of the wrecks I dive here experience very limited visibility as a routine. In contrast, I have memories of 100ft+ clarity diving on the north Scottish coast..

Again, an 'infrequent diver' might opt to decline from diving in (what they assess to be) less than optimal conditions - thus not gaining that varied experience, wherever they live or dive...

Divers who are based in cold-water environments, but only dive in warm-water locations (i.e. most divers) have limited opportunity to dive. They dive infrequently. This reflects in considerable skill-fade between periods of diving, serving to degrade their competency relative to more frequent divers.

Assuming equal frequency of, and commitment to, diving, what really differentiates cold and warm water divers? I'd rationalize that the only tangible and constant difference was the exposure protection used...

The use of thicker exposure protection, particularly gloves and hoods, only has an impact on the development of a small range of motor skills. I don't see any logic in using that small range of motor skills to justify an argument that such a diver is 'better'. Skillful diving encompasses far more aspects than motor skills and finger dexterity alone...
 
There is an element of truth in this.



OK.



60°F is heaven.

Cold starts in the upper 40's when you have to go to full thermal undergarments. The 30's just plain hurt.

I do agree with your premise, however. I am now coming around to addressing all of the trim and buoyancy issues that cold water divers commonly see as being "secondary" skills. Give us a bit more time...

2 dives on Saturday, both at 43f / 6c. Dove wet. expect to dive 57f / 14c next weekend. It will feel positively tropical :)
 
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