OOA question. Who is teaching to give your main unit?

[Sas]

Ana will have to speak for herself, but my impression is that she is largely a solo diver. Doesn't expect help, doesn't plan to provide it.

I'm Ok with that, knowing it up front. lets me know that I'm essentially solo & not to expect help. it's finding that out during the crunch that sucks.

That is an utterly ridiculous reason if that is someone's reason for not sharing gas. Everyone needs help at some point in their life, perhaps not under water, but in other areas. To say 'I won't expect help, therefore I will never give it' is morally reprehensible when it comes to life or death situations. Everyone make mistakes in their life, this often makes them idiots (especially when it comes to running out of air), but this does not mean that they should have to die for their mistake. Especially if it is very easy for someone to have saved them. Obviously, I can understand people putting their own life first if it is in danger but many air sharing situations are safe for both divers.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

Hmmm... another thread where a person is critizied for just stating how they do certain things.

I didn't read all 145 posts but I think I agree with psychocabbage for the most part. I wouldn't do the knife thing, because that would mean actual contact with strangers and I'm not fond of that.

No many people is in the water where I dive. I like open water diving. If there are many feet in one area it doesn't feel open to me so I move over or wait until the feet are gone.
besides that I'm tend to be aware of my surroundings. I'm not saying it is impossible but I highly doubt that a stranger can sneak up on my while diving. The instant a diver tries to get close to me I swim away, I don't care if said diver is trying to show me some amazing whatever, I rather miss out on whatever he/she found that have to deal with the social interaction.

For some people the social things is the good part of diving, for me is the exact opposite. Underwater it is just me, the bubbles, and whatever I encounter on my own. Diving with my husband or the few friends I have is a bit different, but they know that I don't care to see everything they see. My husband or one of those friends comes to me underwater and need air, they can take it. They can grab the 2nd stage out of my mouth or the other one hanging from a ring. I'll give them crap for the rest of their natural life for disrupting my dive, but they can take some of MY AIR.

Now when it comes to a stranger, they are not getting MY AIR. Again, I'm not saying it would be impossible for them to accomplish that, just highly unlikely.

There is a lot of talk about a diver getting panic attacks and how they become Hulk like creatures. Yep, some do, they may be able to get someone's 2nd stage if it is with their reach, but I never heard of any of them having what it takes to chase another diver, specially if they have to chase down to the bottom... they tend to go up to the surface. I won't be there for them to bother me.
So, go ahead a line up saying I would never dive with her.... of course you won't.

First, you should really read all the posts before you chime in, honey. Wayward son says you are a nice lady. I would like to hope so, but I don't think you have a realistic understanding, based on your post.

 

[String]

That is an utterly ridiculous reason if that is someone's reason for not sharing gas.

The usual reason for people not sharing air or not willing to try is a lack of faith in their own ability to actually do it properly. If their skills aren't up to it, they know their skills aren't up to it they're more likely to avoid having to do it in order to cover up that fact.

 

[Sas]

The usual reason for people not sharing air or not willing to try is a lack of faith in their own ability to actually do it properly. If their skills aren't up to it, they know their skills aren't up to it they're more likely to avoid having to do it in order to cover up that fact.

I can see your point but it's not rocket science... People should practice this stuff more I think. I've lost count how many times my buddy has pretended to be OOA, I always treat it if it is the real thing as I can't tell... he is a very good actor If not a little dramatic. He pulled that trick on another guy we dive with and told me the other guy just started at him blankly for a while! We do things like this frequently and whilst it can't simulate a real OOA completely accurately, it has certainly helped me when I have had a few buddies go OOA on me for real.

 

[Rick Murchison]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread has been pulled to the back room for clean-up. It'll be back after that's complete

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Update... Ok... I've removed about half the thread to get rid of the worst personal attacks, trolls, flames and the posts that responded to them. Here's the thread again... it'll stay open as long as y'all play nice.
Rick

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[IXΘYΣ]

I, and all my regular dive buddies, donate the primary in an OOA situation. This is regardless of configuration.
If diving a long hose or an integrated safe second, primary donation is self evident.
In the case of the "standard recreational" configuration of a ~27" primary and ~40" octopus, the team can either make an ascent with the OOA diver breathing off the buddy's primary (no more difficult than doing it in the integrated inflator/regulator configuration, after all), or they can switch to put the OOA diver on the slightly longer octopus - but that's optional.
Our reasoning is:
1. The primary is working; it is a reliable source of air right now.
2. The OOA diver may be very stressed, or even panicked. Getting reliable air to them fast is paramount, and nothing I have is more reliable or faster to locate and donate than the reg in my mouth.
3. The OOA diver may approach unseen and grab the reg from my mouth. If I expect that and train to donate the primary anyway then it's no big deal.
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A little off the subject but relevant are the standard steps we take to prevent an OOA situation in the first place, which include (but are not limited to):
1. Regular regulator maintenance; use of same-quality primary and backup regulators.
2. Pre-dive regulator checks: exhaust valves, purge, breathing, pressure, leaks.
3. S-drill on descent: bubble check, pass the primary, breathe off the secondary.
4. A gas plan that assures the ability to do an air-sharing ascent at any time.
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[Standingbear56]

Hold on there Skippy, unless you are talking about a pro wrestling match where you paid off the script writer, you gots some figuring to do.
When I was fresh out of the military I had a similarly incorrect view. Here I was, 6'5", 215ish, worked out 2 hours a day, 6 days a week, spent 4 years as an Infantryman, with most of the last year working near daily with some people from 1st Special Forces group. I know more ways to kill you with my bare hands than Jack Bauer does. So I go surfing with some old buddies. One of em brings his sister and her friends. Cute girls, (not that kind of cute you pervs!:moonerone of 15, maybe 105 pounds wet, barely strong enough to control the back blast from her hair drier gets put through spin cycle on a wave she didn't see coming and thought she was going to drown. She climbed on top of me, the big tough soldier with hands as lethal as Ginzu knives, and I'll be damned if she didn't almost drown me before someone else managed to get her calming down some. Lesson? Don't bet your life that you are tougher than the next person, especially if that person is particularly motivated.

Thank you for remaking my point # 1.


Ah, I see. Well, to put it bluntly, pulling your knife on someone with some hand to hand combat training is the same thing as saying " Here, take my reg, whichever you choose, and all my air, whilst I lay peacefully bleeding". As for the typical OOA diver, youll never have the chance to go for the knife until after the situation gets under control. Thats called murder, and you can spend the rest of your life in a little cage thinking about it. In Texas, that will be a short stay I reckon...[/QUOTE]

Thank you for remaking my point # 2.

For a second there I was thinking, "wow, this guy is Chuck Norris himself!"

Chuck is in his what - 70's now. I'd still put my money on him, OPs knife and all.

The mentality being shown here - pulling a knife on a diver who is OOA is just beyond belief. MOD, maybe you need to close this thread, as many people with psychiatric problems tend to get off on the publicity, and Heaven knows, we really don't want to be encouraging this guy on any level.

Take care,
George

 

[imasinker]

I once did a rapid ascent from 80 feet to surface in 24 seconds. It was my dive buddy with a massive free flow. He didn't deflate is bcd since he was holding me with one hand and my Octo in his mouth with his other. Althought I tried everything to slow us down dumped my air, blew out my neck seal to vent air in my drysuit we shot like a rocket. He paniced and shyt happens. We were 9 min into the first dive of the day. When we got to the surface and the boat I was asked why I came up with him. In the few seconds I actually had to think I knew a few things. I remembered to breath out, I knew I wouldn't embolize, and I knew the least that could hapen was DCS and I had a boat full of help right there. Boom we were already to the surface. I said, If I pulled my reg from his mouth and he drowned I wouldn't be able to look at anyone ever again. Would you or anyone ever dive with a guy like that? I said. Just so you all know this was dive 37 for me. People say to me..man thats bad, I say yes it was scary, but man it could have been a hell of a lot worse. Hence the underlined comment... Never take down diving...what you can't bring back!

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

In the interests of keeping this relatively clean, I will say something about the use of a knife under water. IMO, it is a last last resort for solving ANY problem. I have a background in climbing. We are reluctant to wave sharp objects around for the simple reason that if you accidentally cut your rope, you are in a world of hurt. A knife is the last, last, last resort, always.

I feel the same way about using a knife under water. If you nick or cut a hose, again you are in a world of hurt. I dive with a pair of shears and a knife with a blunted tip, but I hope the knife never comes out of its sheath, as it is far safer to cut a line or something with shears than a knife.

So...

It's all fun and games to hypothesize about what would happen if person A is attempting to defend themselves from person B and a knife is involved, but I personally think that if a knife is part of a struggle under water, it is likely to end badly for both parties regardless of their training.

 

[seaducer]

Diving classes, teach a lot of skill and technical information, but they also attempt to addresss the very reality that if an emergency happens, divers have a moral responsibility to assist.

Unfortunately you can not teach morality. Someone either has it, or they don't, and most people define it differently. For example, if the OP truely feels he would die if he was forced to donate his primary, he could quite sensibly feel a moral obligation to his family to fight off the offender so he can get home safe.

If that is true than I do not want to dive with this person outside the context of training.

This point seems to get missed by a few people, but there is a reason for teaching how to use an octo or the old buddy breathing.

It is a skill that can, has, and will again save lives. It also instills a sense of calm and confidence in a new diver that running OOA is not automatically a death sentence.

It would be easier to not even address the issue.

True, but the standards are already low enough IMO.

Suppose in an OW class, the student refused to do any exersize that involved any form of assisting anyone else, and refused to answer any question regarding the same on any tests?

Is the student refusing to demonstrate knowledge and proficiency in a skill that is required for certification? If yes, the answer is fail them. If no, the answer is pass them provided they meet the requirements, and make a note not to dive with them, and tell the people you care about so they can make their own decisions.

And, because there is no one there they care for, they remove the octo/Air2 from their gear...as they would have no reason to use it.

I am unaware of a law that requires this equipment to begin with, though I recall seeing it required in a private dive park. Regardless, if you are not violating law or private standards, this is perfectly acceptable.
It also does not mean they are psychotic and refuse to donate. Some people remove the octo from their main reg to use on a pony, and if they decide not to dive with the pony they may enter the water without it. You can still buddy breathe off one reg, this used to be taught in BOW.

Do they get their card? I know what I would do in that situation.

I would hope you would enforce the standards of the agency you teach for, regardless of your personal feelings, however nobel they may be. You do have a choice of what agency you instruct for.

The odd part of all this, is you have people posting on a social dive board, about how anti-social they are. If someone can explain that logic, would like to hear it.

A delicious bit of irony I was going to use as justification for not believing Ana, you beat me to it

Just for the record, I strongly believe we have a social and moral responsibility to our fellow divers (even one's I don't like).

So do I, and I hope I can help each and every person who I meet who needs it, even though I hope I never meet such a person. In the end though, I also have a moral obligation to my friends and family, and even myself, and while I will do my best to help you, I intend to surface even if that means I need to abandon you. Excepting my kids who come first, and quote possibly my wife (if shes reading)