Official vintage diving instruction?

[Thalassamania]

Sensitive? I don't think so. Yes, I understand quite clearly about characteristics of neoprene. None of that has much to do with the viability of a vintage scuba class.

I don't need to learn to dive like you. If you knew my background, you'd keep the insults to yourself. For the record, I don't think you've been anywhere near 200 feet.

Umm ...The biggest problem for the new diver who wants to dive vintage is to learn to deal with buoyancy problems and especially suit compression. But you do not seem to realize, even after others have mentioned it, that the compressibility of rubbers vary rather widely.

Since I clearly don't know your background, please share it with us, we all love the absurdity of the logical fallacy called, "an appeal to authority." For the record, just remember that it is far better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

 

[iPutty]

Umm ...The biggest problem for the new diver who wants to dive vintage is to learn to deal with buoyancy problems and especially suit compression. But you do not seem to realize, even after others have mentioned it, that the compressibility of rubbers vary rather widely.

Since I clearly don't know your background, please share it with us, we all love the absurdity of the logical fallacy called, "an appeal to authority." For the record, just remember that it is far better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

The biggest problem for new divers that want to learn how to dive with vintage gear is that there aren't enough of them to fill a class. Nevertheless, being an instructor and a vintage enthusiast, I was intrigued and wanted join the discussion.

I don't know if you feel threatened or what, but you're a pompous a--. Suit compression?! Seriously?! New divers need to worry about things like lung expansion injuries, not which model Rubatex compresses the least in the first 33 feet of water.

What are you talking about, "logical fallacy??" That sentence doesn't even make sense. I did notice that you used a five syllable word in that post, so you must be smart.

 

[Akimbo]

I have to agree with Thalassamania. Suit compression has such a profound impact on wetsuit diving in cold water that it justifies many of the “advancements” since the “vintage” era. It might be fun, but it is hard to truly go back.

A lot of things conspired to make diving in the old days work including seemingly subtle equipment changes, more rigorous acceptance criteria, and much longer training cycles. I am not making a judgment as to something being superior or inferior, just that it is all an interdependent system.

 

[spectrum]

I've been watching this thread since it started but didn't have time to really respond until,now. trust me, I'll get to the original question, I think.

Most of what is being touted as vintage diving is based simply on good diving. That is, being correctly weighted and in control. Calling yourself vintage does not suspend any laws of physics.

If anyone want's to dive bladderless and experience neutral buoyancy then get into mild enough water with limited neoprene and keep your BC empty. With good weighting and a little bit of lung volume control you can manage the swing of an 80 CF cylinder and be as free as a bird. Even here in the Northeast we have a good month or do where this is easy to do in fresh water if you stay above the thermoclines.

If you want to go into cold water then you need to make trade-offs to manage the physics. A limited compression suit, one no thicker than needed and/or of a low compression material will make the dive easier. Weighting yourself for the dive can be done with experience and a known site. It may mean working your way down and/or employing means like Thalassamania outlined in post 64. You may be swimming the dive at times or even touching off on the bottom. You can't have constant neutrality throughout the water column with a bunch of compressed neoprene and varying cylinder contents, something needs to balance the equation. Lungs can only do so much. I know all of the posters know this stuff but there are more lurkers than posters and I'm chatty tonight.

That's where experience and and planning come in. Luis mentioned being able to tally his items so from dive to dive he understands the puts and takes and does not need a whole weekend of dives to get it close enough. Locally I dive a wide range of suits, 2mm shorty - dry with numerous full suits and vests in between. I keep a matrix of weight needs and placement for fresh, salt, skin and scuba dives. Is that vintage diving? I just saw it as common sense for everyday dive planning.

Is vintage diving use of a double hose regulator? That may be a classic vision but single stage gear is getting dated enough to fall into that realm. I suppose if you dive vintage gear then you are vintage diving. Maybe some of it performs close enough to modern to only qualify as vintage gear maintenance.

Do you need to be bladderless? What if you wear an old horse collar? What if you just keep your BC bladder empty? Faux vintage diving? Is it the technique or the gear, need it be both?

At the end of the day it's all about being neutral in the water column and having fun. If you have your act together going bladderess is an easy evolution. If you decide to go with double hose equipment then mentoring and spending quality time with SeaHunt reruns will get you there.

So back to the OP, how about a vintage diving course? I can see the right people doing it along the lines of the PADI distinctive specialties. That is, a course taught by those with specialized passionate knowledge. I would not want it to be an agency packaged course that any 8 week wonder could collect a fee for.

Anyhow it's getting late, especially since we just ran the clocks ahead. 5:30 AM is the old 4:30. I have said bladderless way too many times but I'm 54 as and as I said it's bedtime.

Have fun,
Dive safe & often (Who am I kidding, my last dive was in September)
And as Red Green would say, Keep your stick on the ice.

Pete

 

[John C. Ratliff]

What I hear is two divers not really listening to each other. Thalassamania has a huge amount of experience, and started diving even before I did by about four years. But at the same time, iPutty is making some interesting points.

Buoyancy control has been an issue for many, many years. I have written on that topic, and hope to post some of that here (I'll see if this will take PDF formated documents). It will, but may not have enough memory to do much (400 KB, but PSD documents have a 1.5 MB limit). Anyway, it doesn't look like an entire document can be scanned and put up here.

We have been either adding air to something, or subtracting weights, for the entire time I've been diving. So there has been attention in cold water to buoyancy control issues. Concerning the wet suit materials, I really don't know what today's suits do as my last one bought that I'm still repairing and using is about 12 years old, when they were still 1/4 inch. I have another (which I currently do not fit into) that is from the 1980s. Having a less-compressible wet suit would probably mean starting out with less initial weighting to be lost, as the suit's buoyancy would not be as great. This would make vintage compensation with only a weight belt easier. It could also be that when the switch to mm instead of inches was made, we got a slightly thicker wet suit. According to Google, (1/4) inch = 6.35 millimeters; I believe in cold water we are now getting 8 mm wet suits, which would be 0.32 inches (5/16 inch). So this may be where some of the extra buoyancy is coming from (more of those closed cells).

Having a compressed neoprene may sound like a great idea for buoyancy control and toughness, but it may also come at a price of less protection from cold. It is those gas cells which protect, and this is best in shallow water. Wet suits become much less effective in deeper depths, due to this compression.

SeaRat

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I've been thinking more about all this lately and have come to the conclusion that some sort of organized official vintage course is nothing more than a huge pipe dream. Who am I kidding, PADI or anybody else take on a vintage specialty? yeah right!

I think it's best left at doing our own thing at aficionado gatherings and events. Once in a while have an open demo and workshop for those that are interested. Feed 'em some tri tip and give 'em a beer.

The established dive industry is a brick wall, it's really hard to break through...easier to just go around. Forget them they are clueless.

With the wetsuit issue: There is an entire parallel universe of different neoprenes and densities available outside of the dive shop. If you just go to a dive shop thinking you will get a suit suitable for diving guess again. The spongy crap they sell these days is good on the surface and as soon as you take it to a few ATM's it smashes out and you freeze. Take it to 130 feet a few times and it's junk in about 6 dives.
The commercial grade stuff is the only way to go. But not every custom suit maker makes commercial suits. Some of them just make pretty suits with trick seam cuts and cool looking color panels but the material is still garbage.

You need to do your homework.

 

[Thalassamania]

The biggest problem for new divers that want to learn how to dive with vintage gear is that there aren't enough of them to fill a class. Nevertheless, being an instructor and a vintage enthusiast, I was intrigued and wanted join the discussion.

I rather doubt that. There are likely not enough students for a profit making class, but knowing vintage divers as I do I can't imagine any of them turning down a request for mentoring from an honestly interested fellow diver.

I don't know if you feel threatened or what, but you're a pompous a--. Suit compression?! Seriously?! New divers need to worry about things like lung expansion injuries, not which model Rubatex compresses the least in the first 33 feet of water.

Sorry, if you are actually interested in vintage diving you need to learn to shut up and listen a bit. Suit compression, and how to both minimize it and deal with it are MAJOR issues for the vintage cold water diver. Not learning how to minimize buoyancy shift and plan your dive keeping weighting in mind is just farm animal stupid (to coin a phrase)

What are you talking about, "logical fallacy??" That sentence doesn't even make sense. I did notice that you used a five syllable word in that post, so you must be smart.

That's just because you have no idea what a "logical fallacy" or an "appeal to authority" is. Try Wiki, it's clearly explained. No charge for the logic lesson.

Hint: no one gives a rat's ass about your "background," or my background, for that matter, what they care about is the quality of your suggestions.

I have to agree with Thalassamania. Suit compression has such a profound impact on wetsuit diving in cold water that it justifies many of the “advancements” since the “vintage” era. It might be fun, but it is hard to truly go back.

A lot of things conspired to make diving in the old days work including seemingly subtle equipment changes, more rigorous acceptance criteria, and much longer training cycles. I am not making a judgment as to something being superior or inferior, just that it is all an interdependent system.

Vintage diving means that you have to consider any number of things that don't even occur to non-vintage diver.

 

[Deputy821]

Both PADI and NAUI have approved vintage diving courses. I am preparing for the NAUI one on March 27, 2011. Our course will include oxygen rebreather familiarization, Australian single hose scuba (1952-58) and French designed double hose scuba. The Australians did not commercially make double hose scuba, but began making single hose scuba in 1952. The first double hose scuba actually made 100% in the USA followed in 1953. Everything else was imported or assembled with imported parts. We will teach how to dive in the original fashion and how to comply with local safety laws and modern dive boat regulations, while enjoying vintage gear. The emphasis will be on history and techniques.

The vintage way began it all and worked for 30 years. What we have done since then was to make new divers safe, by adding safety devices which they now depend upon. The new devices are good in the sense that more people are able to dive, but we have lost some of our skills in doing so. However, it's still just about fun, so that's why we do it.

We have also taught NAUI advanced and basic standard dress and diving courses (hard hat). The advance course was augmented with commercial surface supply certification.

 

[Nemrod]

Both PADI and NAUI have approved vintage diving courses. n.

Unfortunately neither NAUI or worse, PADI, have any idea what vintage era equipment scuba diving is. Vintage era diver, of course, in 1963 it was state of the art:

Now, true, this equipment is old but it is not vintage era:

N

 

[DaleC]

Both PADI and NAUI have approved vintage diving courses. I am preparing for the NAUI one on March 27, 2011. Our course will include oxygen rebreather familiarization, Australian single hose scuba (1952-58) and French designed double hose scuba...We will teach how to dive in the original fashion and how to comply with local safety laws and modern dive boat regulations, while enjoying vintage gear. The emphasis will be on history and techniques.

I'm honestly curious, will the students actually be diving rebreathers or upsidedown tank configurations (as the aussies did) or even doublehoses to the point of experiencing clearing, buddy breathing, lost mouthpiece recovery etc... or will they just sit and listen to a lecture about those things (not meant with a negative connotation)?