Official vintage diving instruction?

[Airleron]

Is Charlie Sheen going with you?

N

Charlie can come if he pays.....and then "accidently" gets lost after we land.

I don't want to end up in a Mexican prison, which is exactly where he's headed! Ha......

 

[iPutty]

Thanks for your ideas and support.

The manufacturing base thing. Most dive gear isn't even made in the USA anymore. Some stuff is but by in large it's all offshored. So in that respect they've abandoned us long ago. One guy does it to get a financial edge and they all have to do it, a fact of modern life in the business world.

However with vintage diving local economies are being supported more than meets the eye. All the rebuild parts for the old regs are being made here (correct me if I'm wrong), and take for example my wetsuits, I have a guy down in Southern California making my new (vintage cut) wetsuits so all the labor is going to him. The neoprene however is made in China but not a lot we can do about that.

Then there's the restoration factor. All the work is done by american craftsmen working in their shops. Simonbeans makes harnesses, a nother guy is doing chrome work, Bryan restores and sells double hoses and parts, the list goes on.
Then there's the resale factor with people digging out this old stuff and putting a little money into their pockets which in turn gets put right back into the immediate american economy.

Besides I don't think the vintage community makes up even one one hundredth of one percent of the overall diving population so I don't see that as being even a blip on the sales flow of modern gear sellers.

We are just into our own thing. I do think however our scene could benefit from a little more organization and structured mentorship, because right now it's all over the place. Somebody admiring vintage diving that want's to get into it has a lot of hurdles to jump over before they even get into the water.

As far as modern training and safety devices, I think a little differently about it.
I don't see anything safe about teaching people to grossly overweight themselves and then depend on a big air bag to do all the work for them including keeping them floating on the surface.
I think the old style of diving where weighting was critical and taught correctly and the emphasis was put on in water skills and comfort is a much safer way to dive IMO.
The less contraptions to depend on and the more good skills and watermanship strenghts to depend on is light years ahead of how they train divers now.

That's why we need organization, to teach new people coming into vintage that what they learned in their PADINAUISSISDI open water isn't going to work for vintage.
Them trying to figure this out on their own could present a problem.

Sure. I agree with all of that. It's just that the vintage market isn't exactly an "industry," so the economic benefits can't be quantified the same way.

That said visibility is key if we as a diving community want our segment to grow. As it does, bona fide instruction could become very important, considering the unique aspect of diving with vintage equipment.

We all know the gear is intrinsically safe if properly maintained. But, obviously, you can't clear your double hose reg with the push of a button. So, divers new to the stuff should be trained and gain experience in a controlled environment. But, as a population, vintage divers are pretty spread out. That makes it tough to fill a class.

One recurring theme I do take issue with is that PADI teaches divers to overweight themselves. They don't. Buoyancy control is critical to safety as well as keeping our reefs healthy among other benefits, and all the training agencies know it. The buoyancy issue is with divers themselves. New divers tend to breath at the top of their lung capacity because they are often nervous. When they finally calm down enough to exhale, they take some time to realize that they can lose more than a few pounds of lead.

Without a BC, you have no choice. It occurs to me that "no BC" diving would probably be a good skill in the pool for new O/W students. Unfortunately, I don't see that making it's way into the curriculum any time soon.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Sure. I agree with all of that. It's just that the vintage market isn't exactly an "industry," so the economic benefits can't be quantified the same way.

That said visibility is key if we as a diving community want our segment to grow. As it does, bona fide instruction could become very important, considering the unique aspect of diving with vintage equipment.

We all know the gear is intrinsically safe if properly maintained. But, obviously, you can't clear your double hose reg with the push of a button. So, divers new to the stuff should be trained and gain experience in a controlled environment. But, as a population, vintage divers are pretty spread out. That makes it tough to fill a class.

One recurring theme I do take issue with is that PADI teaches divers to overweight themselves. They don't. Buoyancy control is critical to safety as well as keeping our reefs healthy among other benefits, and all the training agencies know it. The buoyancy issue is with divers themselves. New divers tend to breath at the top of their lung capacity because they are often nervous. When they finally calm down enough to exhale, they take some time to realize that they can lose more than a few pounds of lead.

Without a BC, you have no choice. It occurs to me that "no BC" diving would probably be a good skill in the pool for new O/W students. Unfortunately, I don't see that making it's way into the curriculum any time soon.

Oh boy, the overweighting issue is a slippery slope my friend.

I've seen the exact opposite. In fact in my open water class I was a victim of being grossly overweighted as were all the other students. We didn't know any better, but I remember thinking, man I'm glad I'm not freediving, I'd be sitting on the bottom right now.
They had me 18 to 20lbs overweighted. I remember landing on the inflator button full blast for quite a while just to avoid crashing the bottom in 30 feet of water.
I remember overhearing the instructor telling the DM's to make sure the students sank and if that mean't adding 10 pounds of weight to what they already have on then do it.
I was wearing a rented half worn out 2 piece 7 mil farmer john, an old seaquest plain jacket BC, and a 38 lb. weight belt!!

For the last pleasure dive I trudged around with a largely inflated BC and swam around at a 45 degree angle because of the massive weight belt. There really wasn't too much pleasurable about it.

Later I figured things out and got my belt down to 20 lbs with that same suit and BC. This was after the class and before I bought my own gear, I rented for a while. I remember it was the same suit and BC because they had limited rental units in my size and I remembered the numbers painted on the equipment.

Later when I DM'd for other instructors through the same shop I saw the same thing.

Now maybe in your case you're not doing that, and maybe PADI has a policy against it that I don't know about, but all I'm saying is I know what I saw.

 

[aquaregia]

In my NAUI checkout dives I had 30# of lead. I currently dive with 10# or less (depth dependent, of course). That's $80 worth of lead, for the conspiracy theorists.

 

[DaleC]

42 on my OW course, 18 now in a DS - 26 in a WS.
No conspiracy theory for me as the shop provided the weight but I guess that's why they now have PPB. No time to properly weight diver during OW

 

[iPutty]

42 on my OW course, 18 now in a DS - 26 in a WS.
No conspiracy theory for me as the shop provided the weight but I guess that's why they now have PPB. No time to properly weight diver during OW

I understand that overweighting is common among new divers, believe me. What I take issue with is the allegation that PADI "teaches" the practice of overweighting, which simply is not true. Overweighting in a dive class, particularly O/W, is the result of laziness on the part of the instructor. But, that's not a reflection of the certifying agency or it's curriculum.

That said, the point of this thread was to open a discussion about the viability of formal vintage scuba instruction. Buoyancy is probably the most significant factor that would need to be addressed in such a course.

On a different note, how far would you take it? I was certified in the days when the final exam included memorizing Henry's, Dalton's and Boyle's laws as well as Archimedes' Principle, advanced physiology and and multi-stage decompression using Navy dive tables. Frankly, I loved it, because I'm a nerd and think that stuff is fascinating.

If you embrace the mindset of the time, vintage diving really encompasses a lot more than swimming around with very old gear. The Skin Diver's Bible (1963) even provides decompression chamber procedures!

 

[Thalassamania]

Over-weighting is a symptom of laziness on the part of the instructor, not agency policy per se. However it has become so pervasive that there are many, many CDs who not only tolerate it, but actually make excuses for it (e.g., it is easier to keep control of students if they are stuck on the bottom).

We spend an entire pool session on weighting alone, including establishing for each diver the exact weighting of each piece of gear separately. The we redo the entire process later in salt water. Each diver has a chart that lists all their gear and the totals. It's overkill but it clearly makes the point.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I understand that overweighting is common among new divers, believe me. What I take issue with is the allegation that PADI "teaches" the practice of overweighting, which simply is not true. Overweighting in a dive class, particularly O/W, is the result of laziness on the part of the instructor. But, that's not a reflection of the certifying agency or it's curriculum.

That said, the point of this thread was to open a discussion about the viability of formal vintage scuba instruction. Buoyancy is probably the most significant factor that would need to be addressed in such a course.

On a different note, how far would you take it? I was certified in the days when the final exam included memorizing Henry's, Dalton's and Boyle's laws as well as Archimedes' Principle, advanced physiology and and multi-stage decompression using Navy dive tables. Frankly, I loved it, because I'm a nerd and think that stuff is fascinating.

If you embrace the mindset of the time, vintage diving really encompasses a lot more than swimming around with very old gear. The Skin Diver's Bible (1963) even provides decompression chamber procedures!

Agreed, let's forget about PADI and weighting for now.

First off I'm not an instructor, but I am a very enthusiastic diver that can't help but get involved in things. I start dive clubs, round people up to do fun things like campouts and get togethers, etc.
So this vintage instruction thing is typical of the things I like to think about and start.

I would like to see it in a workshop format.
Start with a lecture on history of the gear then move into theory, depth and time, SAC rates for air supply calculations, etc.
I would then talk about weighting.
I would give homework for swimming and getting in shape.
Next thing would be gear selections.
There would be a skin diving portion.
After that either pool or ocean acclimation with vintage gear and skin diving.
There would have to be buddy breathing skills, ditch and don, more on ESA's than they teach now.
Thinking about it there would be a lot to it.

I would require at least 50 or 100 dives to be able to get to dive in the ocean with full vintage gear.
I don't know anything about fresh water quarries and how to determine how many dives a person should have for that.

I would also allow people to take the class for modern minimalist diving as an alternative. The techniques and training are the exact same.
This would allow people that don't want to chase down a bunch of old gear and get it working to get right in and still learn everything else.



Maybe I should just work to get my instructor rating and do this myself.

 

[Gilldiver]

We spend an entire pool session on weighting alone, including establishing for each diver the exact weighting of each piece of gear separately. The we redo the entire process later in salt water. Each diver has a chart that lists all their gear and the totals. It's overkill but it clearly makes the point.

I have been an advocate of this method for years. I look at a tank/BC rig and want to know

Dry Weight @ 300 psi
Dry Weight Full
Buoyancy Full
Buoyancy @ 300 PSI

You don’t need the dry weights, but it is easy to get them and after 3 back operations sometimes I need to know.

With the buoyancy measurements, they are done with the rig fully dressed out, regs, BC back plate if used, and all the do-dads that are normally carried. Care is taken to get all the air out of all items. You now know the swing of the rig and if you know what it takes to get neutral in whatever exposure protection you use, you can dial in your weight to the nearest pound.

If you know that you need 26# with a full 7mm farmer john wet suit and you know that the empty weight of your set of aluminum 80’s is -4 then you need to use 22# on your weight belt.

 

[Luis H]

Knowing the dry weight of the complete diver and gear also makes it very easy to convert fresh to salt water weight needs.

I keep an Excel spread sheet with a list of all the thermal protection (wet-suit and dry-suit) combinations that I use with all the different types of tanks that I use and all the other gear. It really helps since I dive a large variety of rigs and thermal protection (in Maine, Caribbean, St. Lawrence River, etc.).