Official vintage diving instruction?

[iPutty]

Nemrod wrote: "Unfortunately neither NAUI or worse, PADI, have any idea what vintage era equipment scuba diving is"

The equipment we are teaching with, will come mostly from my collection. They include; Porpoises, a Scubmatic, a Sea Bee, a Dawson Lung, a Lawson Lung, Heinke Mk II & III, a Siebe Gorman Mistral, a Sea Lion II, La Spirotechnique Mistral and Royal Mistrals, a Drager Duomat, a Voit VR-1, a Nemrod Snark III and various US made regulators. The rebreathers include seven Drager LAR Vs, a C96, a Siebe Gorman Salvus, a Cressi-Sub ARO 57B, a Pirelli LS 901 and a Drager LAR VII. It has been a challenge to service the regulators and test the tanks

We were successful with our standard dress courses, so perhaps we can do this too. In any case, we will try. See: DIVING HISTORICAL SOCIETY, AUSTRALIA SEA ASIA - PORTLAND 2010

Steve (Yank Down Under)

That's a very impressive equipment list. How of that time is with rebreathers? What are the liability concerns? Not just with rebreathers, but the class in general How did you deal with insurance coverage and that sort of thing?

 

[Deputy821]

The course is conducted by a commercial diving operation and is a NAUI approved course. It is offered to members of the Historical Diving Society in Australia. HDS here does not dive, but is an informational group, so diving of this sort is done under the banner of a commercial trainer. Insurance is just as with any other diving course sanctioned by NAUI.

I went to the coordinator today and he has arranged for some of his commercial divers to attend. They like to play too. We will split the group in two, with half diving rebreathers while the other half dives with open circuit. Drager LAR V rebreathers are not too different from Dolphin rebreathers. Even the Dolphin has an oxygen dosimeter jet. He also offered a "dip in the pool" in a Kirby-Morgan Super Lite commercial helmet, which should be fun. Just about everyone in our course is NAUI advanced standard dress qualified from our helmet course last year. The Kirby Morgan will add to the day. We will have a pizzas lunch on the first day and a sausage sizzle at the pool side. That's Aussie for "Weenie Roast".

 

[JamesBon92007]

Maybe a whole new separate agency dedicated to the vintage scene, or maybe a specialty course with one of the existing agencies?
Who do we talk to, how do we do this?

Who did NAUI talk to? Or NASDS? Or YMCA? I don't know that there was anyone then to certify certification agencies. Maybe there was. If not, then what's to stop some of us old guys from starting our own agency? Lawyers? It might be difficult to get some dive shops to fill a tank with a C-Card from OFWOG (Old Farts With Old Gear) or something similar.

I just had a second thought... when was the last time any dive shop actually asked to see your C-Card? I think I may have been asked once or twice in 42 years and then it was a place like Sports Chalet and not really a Dive Shop. So, on the odd chance anyone really did ask, OFWOG just might get by.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Who did NAUI talk to? Or NASDS? Or YMCA? I don't know that there was anyone then to certify certification agencies. Maybe there was. If not, then what's to stop some of us old guys from starting our own agency? Lawyers? It might be difficult to get some dive shops to fill a tank with a C-Card from OFWOG (Old Farts With Old Gear) or something similar.

I just had a second thought... when was the last time any dive shop actually asked to see your C-Card? I think I may have been asked once or twice in 42 years and then it was a place like Sports Chalet and not really a Dive Shop. So, on the odd chance anyone really did ask, OFWOG just might get by.

The agencies are nothing more than self appointed "experts" in what they consider safe and complete dive instruction. There is no state or federal guideline or law for what dive agencies need to teach to meet any mandated criteria.
There is no law that says any person in the US needs to have a certification card to be able to scuba dive legally. A person could read a copy of the New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving, do all the exercises in the book, go out and buy a set of dive gear and start diving, absolutely no law against it.
I've never been asked once for a C card for an air fill. I've never been asked once for a C card when I've walked into a dive shop and purchased a piece of dive gear.
The only time a person may be asked for a C card is when boarding a charter boat or signing up for a dive at a vacation resort kiosk. Other than that if you are shore diving or own your own boat knock yourself out.

With that said, I don't see anything stopping a person from becoming a so called "self appointed expert" in the field of vintage diving equipment and technique and starting their own school or agency in that specialty..

You're exactly correct, and who was it that gave all the original "experts" permission to start agencies and proclaim them "instructors"?

From what I heard the original instruction was printed on a card for the double hose regulator and was included in the box. It said "Don't hold your breath - have fun".

 

[Luis H]

There was a lot of discussion about teaching and certifications when we started NAVED. Once the subject of liability came up and some members looked at the cost of insurance and the related issues the whole subject was dropped fast.

You can thank our legal system and the lack of individual responsibility for this.

The agencies are all self appointed experts, but they are now established and carry a lot of insurance.

I dislike some of the stuff that the large agencies teach, but in their defense this self regulated industry has kept the government out of introducing laws and regulations on the sport. This is not the case in other counties.

 

[JamesBon92007]

The agencies are nothing more than self appointed "experts" in what they consider safe and complete dive instruction. There is no state or federal guideline or law for what dive agencies need to teach to meet any mandated criteria.
There is no law that says any person in the US needs to have a certification card to be able to scuba dive legally. A person could read a copy of the New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving, do all the exercises in the book, go out and buy a set of dive gear and start diving,
With that said, I don't see anything stopping a person from becoming a so called "self appointed expert" in the field of vintage diving equipment and technique and starting their own school or agency in that specialty..

.

What the "experts" consider "safe and complete dive instruction" seems now to have become inadequate. An "OW" certification, as far as I can tell, does not include many of the basics from "The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving." I'm guessing that three course would need to be taken to cover what's in that book plus a request for additional training such as learning the dive tables. Perhaps it IS time for a new agency that teaches all of the old stuff plus the new stuff (computers, Nitrox, etc). My daughters want to become certified but after talking to some instructors and dive shop owners I have not yet found a course that I could recommend to them. Personally I would be more comfortable teaching them myself but would want the input/assistance of another experienced diver just to make sure I didn't leave something out. I'm not sure that there would be any great advantage to teaching them to dive with no BC or SPG but perhaps one or two dives with only the essentials would be a big plus and they would learn that when you run out of air at 35 or 40 feet your are not going to die. In fact, they will learn that it's just not a problem. Even without a J-valve.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

What the "experts" consider "safe and complete dive instruction" seems now to have become inadequate. An "OW" certification, as far as I can tell, does not include many of the basics from "The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving." I'm guessing that three course would need to be taken to cover what's in that book plus a request for additional training such as learning the dive tables. Perhaps it IS time for a new agency that teaches all of the old stuff plus the new stuff (computers, Nitrox, etc).

That would be a premium course. Instead of a $299 three day special it would be more like a $1200 to $1500 course. I do think there would be a market for people who maybe are already certified (or not) and offer it as a challenge to be the best, strongest, most capable diver they can be with a retro full course, not this abreviated thing they have now.

My daughters want to become certified but after talking to some instructors and dive shop owners I have not yet found a course that I could recommend to them. Personally I would be more comfortable teaching them myself but would want the input/assistance of another experienced diver just to make sure I didn't leave something out.

Teach them the basics yourself with the book in mind complete with skin diving, etc.
Then later run them through an agency course just as a technicality to get a card. They will already be miles ahead of everyone else in the class.

I'm not sure that there would be any great advantage to teaching them to dive with no BC or SPG but perhaps one or two dives with only the essentials would be a big plus and they would learn that when you run out of air at 35 or 40 feet your are not going to die. In fact, they will learn that it's just not a problem. Even without a J-valve.

The advantage would be to teach them absolute perfect buoyancy and comfort and how to actually swim like a fish, not a person guiding around a self contained and integrated elevator unit with a tank attached.
If they learned gas mangement, SAC rate, and payed attention to depth and time with their available air supply the whole "running out of air" thing would be kind of a moot point. By the time they were low they should be about done with their dive and on their way up. The J valve was supposed to be an idiot proofer.
Nowdays people have an SPG (the ultimate idiot proofer) and in some cases a computerized low air alarm and they still somehow manage to run out of air

The whole idea of a vintage course would be to learn the old ways as a preservation of history, not that it's necessarily better that modern day equipment, although some aspects I think are. Diving with no BC and no SPG would be part of the historical adventure, but in a modern world it also forces divers to pay attention to what they're doing.

 

[JamesBon92007]

When I started diving SPGs were just coming out and the only people who had them were rich folks (like dive instructors). I have read here that many choose to add a SPG to their old doublehose. Understandable. I'd rather have one than not. I had a $12 watch and knew about how long my air would last. I have never dived with a J-Valve. I have a "snorkel vest" with a CO2 cartridge but I have never put air in it or pulled the string.

Meanwhile, back at the vintage certification agency...

I realize that liability and insurance are major issues but it seems to me that if we were to form a non-profit corporation then if someone was to sue they would be suing the corporation, not the individuals. There must be some kind of limits of liability in place or there probably wouldn't be any certification agencies. The corporation would need to raise money for insurance, advertising, printing C-Cards, and, of course, paying the president and board of directors a huge salary. I just happen to be looking for a new career.

Hopefully the course would be complete and would not have to cost more than a few hundred bucks. I have never used a doublehose so I would need to take the course too

But the most important thing we must consider is the name of the agency

PASTI: Primitive Archaic Scuba Training Instructors (this one needs a lot of help and is, of course, a play on NAUI). Perhaps "Preserve" would be a good start.

DIVE: Dive Instructors of Vintage Equipment

Anyone else?

 

[Deputy821]

We have just completed what may be the first complete vintage diving course here in Australia. Rather than duplicate what I have already written, please have a look at:

Vintage Double Hose • View topic - NAUI Vintage Diving Course

Steve

 

[Airleron]

UWDUVE Certification: U Won't Die Using Vintage Equipment

Pronouncing this might be a problem.

Lisa