Octo vs. Pony

[O2BBubbleFree]

Hi all,

I’ve been diving with a standard octo set-up, but will be moving to a slung pony. And, ironically, OE2X’s comments above describe my reasoning precisely!

Why does any of this matter? Again I go back to diving progression…
Better to start off on the right foot than to have to relearn it later.

I plan to be diving a rebreather in the not-so-distant future, so it makes sense for me to start using a system now that I can carry over into the future.

In weighing the pro’s and cons of a DIR/Hog set-up versus a slung pony, the only advantage the DIR/Hog set-up has is that if you donate what you are breathing you know it works. However, with a double-hose set-up (either RB or Vintage), donating what you are breathing is obviously not an option. And with proper discipline (regular checking and monitoring) I can be confident that the pony will work.

I will use ‘rock bottom-like’ gas planning to ensure I have enough back gas in reserve for one diver, and carry a pony of appropriate size for one diver.

I also plan to use an easily detachable mount so that the two divers can be separated if warranted.

(Later that same day) In keeping with the original question, I plan to carry the pony on all dives, so will loose the octo.

 

[PerroneFord]

From my outdoors background, the analogy would be my saying that day hikers must carry the full kit that I use for multiple week back-country trips; I'm happy if they carry a flashlight, some exposure gear, and basic first aid kit, don't stress out over their not carrying everything I do in my big pack, though I would not start a backwoods excursion with someone who showed up in flip-flops carrying a PB&J and no water.


As to not having to relearn things, I believe (could be wrong) that a DIR fitout is more than slightly different from what most rec divers use for diving, so learning to stop using a tank-mount pony ought not be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

While I tend not to jump into other people's arguments, there is something mentioned here tha struck me as quite strange. I hope you'll indulge me here a bit.

The analogy you draw is quite interesting. Having been away from diving for so many years, I had really not been familiar with DIR or Hogarthian principles. However, upon seeing it, reading about it, and understanding the principles, it made quite a lot of sense to me. However, visually, the thing I found most striking was the very "bare" nature of the divers. In looking at the tropical DIR setup, other than the regulators and the short corrugated hose, it was hard to tell the divers actually were wearing SCUBA gear when viewed from the front. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the Hogarthian and DIR divers tend to wear FAR less stuff underwater than most recreational divers when diving to similar depths for similar times.

In regards to re-learning things, I believe the DIR diver is wearing something afwully close to what most rec divers are wearing, it just looks slightly different. Exposure suit, BC device, skin gear, tank, maybe a light, maybe a knife, and guages. There's really not much else.

The concept of the pony really seems to boil down to one simple concept. Do I have a reliable buddy, or don't I. If i do, then I don't need a pony. If I don't, then I either need redundant gas, or I need to stay out of the water. And I think this is where DIR seperates itself from the pack. The rec diver says, I will carry a pony, the DIR diver says, I'm not getting in the water today. The pony solves one aspect of the absent buddy. And that is the OOA scenario. It does nothing to help the toxing diver scenario, the entangled diver scenario, the lost mask scenario, the lost buoyancy scenario, the lost diver scenario, or anything else.

Perhaps I am approaching this differently than most people, but even though I've not been in open water in many years, I am not so eager to do so, that I'd do it without a reliable buddy, or what I believe to be one.

 

[dbg40]

One thing I would like to point out about DIR and it's aversion to ponies:

DIR was created by people who were spending a lot of time deep in caves. The main configuration was to be on doubles, sling deco bottles, stage bottles/travel gas. When you are diving in an overhead environment you want to keep your entanglement possibilities to a mininmum. This results in no bottles being hooked off on your back gas, knives on your calf etc... Deco bottles, travel gas, stage bottles etc... are slung so that they can be easily gotten to, dropped off or used. Obviously there are other reasons that have been mentioned earlier in this thread that are while valid are not exactly the prime reasons.

If a DIR trained diver (including DIR-f) is going to carry anything over and above doubles, we are trained to sling it. It is done this way from DIR-f to condition oneself not to get into habits that would have to be broken as you advance through your training. One of the ideas of DIR is to build on skills from the very beginning and keep them the same throughout your progression and advancement into more difficult and demanding kinds of diving.

If a DIR trained diver is slinging a bottle, it is with a very specific purpose in mind and not one based on chance - ie... equipment malfunction. One of the purposes that I have personally seen it used for is during deco. We carry our deco gas (slung) with us. That deco gas is likely to be a higher percentage of O2 and is figured into the dive plan. This is not backup gas, it is gas to lessen the deco time.

Why does any of this matter? Again I go back to diving progression. If you are used to having a tank mounted pony as a recreational diver, then advance and start laying line in a wreck, you increase your risks of potentially fatal entanglement if you keep a tank mounted pony. If you get into deco diving and start carrying 70-100% O2 slung and have been slinging your pony bottle for a few years, you will have to break your mental dependency of the pony.

Better to start off on the right foot than to have to relearn it later.

The bottom line is that DIR divers among others are trained to rely on their team if something befalls like chance. Otherwise each piece of gear serves a very distinct purpose. Is DIR diving the only way to safely dive? No, but having dove for nearly thirty years the other ways, I can say that it works for me and the kind of diving that I like to and plan to do. Those of you who haven't tried this style should give it shot before you get your panties in a knot over it.

Fish on.

Now this is well said, and in a manner that is NOT inflamatory, thank you. I do understand DIR, and have taken some courses to understand it better. It is an amazing concept, and I have learned MUCH from it. I guess what I am having a hard time getting across here, is that it may not be for everyone,. I have seen personally, the actions, and reactions of DIR divers to "standard issue" divers, and the comments are uncalled for, and ignorant. This, in MY opinion, is the base for the hard feelings toward the DIR community. It's the "holyer than thou" attitude that brings it on. A highly traind *****,, is still an *****, I know, and dive with a couple of hard core dir types, and they are the nicest guys you could meet, they also hang with others that you would want to drown from the looks they give other "lesser" (in their opinion) divers alone. Not every diver wants, or needs this level of dive training or gear configuration. However, I DO believe that the current level of training is grossly lacking in todays classroom. There should be some DIR brought to the table in basic scuba training, as I believe that a great deal of it is a fantastic concept in skill training. I also believe that it can be more palatable to some, if taken in moderation. Fish on indeed!

 

[markfm]

Perrone -- Absolutely fair comment, thanks. I may well be wrong, just the pictures I have seen seemed configured differently. Perhaps my gear is different from others. Being intimately familiar with one's own gear, and my buddy's gear, practicing frequently, is important no matter what one uses, and I do credit DIR with emphasizing standardization.
Apologies, not trying to hijack the thread. The pony comments have been really informative.

 

[redacted]

Bigtuna

I went thru some of this same debate as I got into solo diving and a pony.

I decided early on that the pony is first and foremost for me - my redundent emergency gas supply. When I used a tank mounted pony, I bungeed the pony 2nd and included an SPG sitting next to my primary SPG so no surprise loss of gas. I was using an Air2 which worked well with this configuration.

When I switched to a BP/W, I found it difficult to mount on the rig using an ultimate pony bracket - too many straps interfering with each other. I'm sure the problem could have been solved with another mounting system. But with D-rings available, I went to a sling rig (pretty cheap & easy to DIY) and liked it. But the Air2 and slung pony tended to interfere with each other as they both claime the same space. So I was back to a sdt octo on a bungee necklace and that rig seems to work well.

It is also readily tailored for a particular dive. If you have a good buddy you can leave the pony behind if you want and still be able to render aid to an OOA diver. Just because you don't have a buddy doesn't mean that you will not be called upon to help so the octo still has its place.

 

[serambin]

I think, I won't dive with you.

Shouldn't you have an ergo in there after the comma?

Stan

 

[Florida]

I keep the Octo and at times sling/clip a 30 cu pony onto the BCD.
I have a second stage and a small thumbnail gauge on it. I like the sling/clipon so that if the buddy has a problem, I can detach it and give it to him.
I use the pony primarly for solo diving. OK I'm a solo instructor.
If your buddy runs out of air, your probably low yourself.
There have been a lot of bouble drownings when two people try to remember how to share air and ascend.
Why a 30, do the math. The pony is usually always less then full, often filled off anouther tank with a crossover equalizer.
30 cu if you use 2 cu min is 15 min. Not much if it is not full, breathing hard due to stress, If you deep the last thing you want to do is come up fast. If you ran out of air, it would be a good idea to have something for a safety stop. Not to mention thqt you will need air to fill your bcd manually.

I lost a spare air on the Mahi dive in the 80's. Good thing, that 1.5 cuft would have lasted less then a minute. Even the 6 cuft will only give you 3 min if full

 

[gcbryan]

The arguments against using a pony lose me. If your buddy is your backup air, great. But wouldn't it be better to be self sufficient in the first place? Use your own pony if a low pressure hose breaks and then go to your buddy for assistence.

You don't have to stop being a good buddy just because both of your use ponies. If a long hose is great because you don't have to be so closely tied to each other why not use a pony and not be tied to each other at all?

I understand the references to cave diving. If I were cave diving I wouldn't use a pony either. I would be using doubles.

 

[serambin]

The degree of redundancy used by any diver is a matter of personal choice and goes directly to the question of what makes them feel safe. Feeling safe is a must if you're going to enjoy yourself while diving (and I assume we do this stuff for fun . . . don't we?). Depending on your training and experience, both the amount and the source, we all try to reach a level of safety that allows us to enjoy the dive.

If you dive solo, a pony for OOA situations makes sense. For a cave diver a pony for deco makes sense.

Can you go to extremes with the safety thing? I don't think so.

I never get in a car without using a safety belt, my wife drives me nuts because she won't wear one. In 39 years of driving, I have never had an accident. In her 14 years of driving, she's had 5. It's about what makes you feel safe.

Like I said, I use a safety belt, but if I wanted, I could also choose to wear a safety helmet. To me that is over kill (but with all the NASCAR wan'abes on the highway today, it might be a good idea).

Choice, it's a beautiful thing. :mostlysun

Stan

 

[OE2X]

Now this is well said, and in a manner that is NOT inflamatory, thank you. I do understand DIR, and have taken some courses to understand it better. It is an amazing concept, and I have learned MUCH from it. I guess what I am having a hard time getting across here, is that it may not be for everyone,. I have seen personally, the actions, and reactions of DIR divers to "standard issue" divers, and the comments are uncalled for, and ignorant. This, in MY opinion, is the base for the hard feelings toward the DIR community. It's the "holyer than thou" attitude that brings it on. A highly traind *****,, is still an *****, I know, and dive with a couple of hard core dir types, and they are the nicest guys you could meet, they also hang with others that you would want to drown from the looks they give other "lesser" (in their opinion) divers alone. Not every diver wants, or needs this level of dive training or gear configuration. However, I DO believe that the current level of training is grossly lacking in todays classroom. There should be some DIR brought to the table in basic scuba training, as I believe that a great deal of it is a fantastic concept in skill training. I also believe that it can be more palatable to some, if taken in moderation. Fish on indeed!

I agree with you on all points. I choose not to have a holier than tho' attitude about DIR, because in my not so distant past I was one of the masses. I see this same 'tude alot, but I chock it up as insecurity on that persons part. It can also be impatience on the DIR person seeing a swimming CF and knowing that they only recently learned to walk .