Octo vs. Pony

[Tabbykatt3]

Thank you for the advise. I haven't been able to get an answer from the airlines.

I remove the valve, put a clear baggie over the opening, closed with an elastic, and send it and the valve through checked luggage. No problem putting the valve back on and getting it filled on location, and no problem when back home, my LDS refilling it.
(I put the valve in a separate ziploc bag, in a piece of foam.)
When you empty it, prior to travel, bleed it off slowly -- that way it avoids condensation.

 

[gcbryan]

What I see people that dive with ponies as backup believe is that they and anyone else that dives this way is self sufficient. Oh look my buddy is having a problem - well he will go to his pony and be fine, sort of mindset. This mindset engenders poor buddy skills that can get someone killed as it did in Mulkiteo a while ago. If you were diving with me, I would have my primary reg in an outstretched hand waiting for you to immediately breath off of even if you were carrying a pony. That's one of the differences of someone who is DIR trained, versus a person who is dependent on a pony.

This is a poor assumption. It's like assuming that DIR divers are caring people and everyone else isn't. If my buddy is having air problems I'm offering my reg as well. If he solves the problem I'm still mindful that he may still have a problem. Since a good buddy is there for more than sharing air he/she is still needed even with a pony on ones back.

 

[CIBDiving]

This is a poor assumption. It's like assuming that DIR divers are caring people and everyone else isn't.

It more than that, It's an arrogant assumption. But it is a normal one for DIR divers - 'either do it this way or you don't know what you're doing and are unsafe'.

 

[jonnythan]

It more than that, It's an arrogant assumption. But it is a normal one for DIR divers - 'either do it this way or you don't know what you're doing and are unsafe'.

With all due respect, you don't get it. At all. At all. I'm afraid that you never will and you will continue attacking us, without provocation, for a long time to come. This makes me sad.

 

[CIBDiving]

I don't know, but I raised the point as pony discussion and not one as a doubles consideration. Chances are though had the diver been on doubles he would not have sucked his tank empty.

Wow, doubles have a magical quality that refills them as you dive? So if you dive doubles you no longer need to look at your SPG!

This is true that staying close to your buddy is SOP, but many agencies only to seem to do lip service to it. It's not that it's "cult" like so much as buddy awareness is a basic tenant of DIR style of diving. Call it what you like, but I have seen a lot more poor buddy skills from people that are not DIR trained versus a single DIR trained diver.

No many Divers only pay lip service to it. I am guessing you are refering to rec divers.
I've seen plenty of 'DIR' divers ( at least self professed as such) who I won't dive with.

Well to my thinking I can cover 7' in no more than a second. Thats pretty close.

That's pretty FAST not just close! Did you just see the thread about "breaching", 7 ft/sec is more than 6 knts.

The fact that the OOA diver is tethered to me, also keeps him close. By having him on a 7' hose I can reverse frog kick and face him to see how he is doing. On a regular 36" octo hose, we are too close together for that to happen. This has been covered though in plenty of other threads.

You may not want the diver close, you may need to leave. an example: I was finishing a dive when a diver reached that stop he was low on air and May not have had enough to do his deco obligation.I simply handed off my pony and left.

and reaching : if a diver was trapped but need more than you can do - you can hand off a reasonable number of minutes to breath and surface for help.

I must not have made my point clear. DIR style dictates that your gear configuration stays pretty much the same no matter what or how you are diving. If you dive a singles rig for rec. then outside of another tank, manifold, two first stages and larger wing, your configuration stays the same. You don't adopt or change techniques beyond slinging bottles, which you can do on a singles rig. The point that I was unsuccessfully trying to make is why carry a pony bottle when you are rec diving to pass off when you wouldn't do this when you are diving doubles? It's more about muscle memory.

No, you made your point clear - It's just an invalid one.

Fish On [/QUOTE]

not even close - And besides - I hooked you First! eyebrow

 

[jonnythan]

It's NOT the gear.

It's the DIVER and the diver's SKILL and ATTITUDE.

DIR does certainly not have a monopoly on good divers and great skills.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

Hi Xman, Let's talk...

I might be misunderstanding what you have said, but from what I got out of your post it doesn't seem like you're gaining much redundancy there and are opening yourself up to extra potential problems.
For a "rock bottom" gas plan to work, you need enough gas at all times for you AND your buddy to safely ascend at any point during your dive.
By only planning on having enough reserve to get one diver to the surface in your main cylinder, you are not (by my way of thinking) really redundant at all.

I think we’re talking about the same rock bottom concept.

For simplicity sake let’s say I’m planning a square profile dive with no complicating factors. In planning the dive I determine that one stressed diver might need 17 cu ft for safe ascent.

For standard rock bottom calculations I would double that volume (for two divers), translate that volume into a pressure, add on 200 psi or so, and the result would be the lowest pressure at which we would start an ascent. If either my buddy or I have a catastrophic failure at the critical point of the dive, we have at least 34 cu ft to ascend. Right?

Now, in calculating that rock bottom pressure, I used 17 cu ft per diver, right? So if I have a pony of at least 17 cu ft, and ensure my back gas does not fall below 17 cu ft., then I still have 34 cu ft for two divers to ascend.

Obviously I’m not planning on having different sized ponies. But I have calculated that a 19 cu ft pony is large enough for any dives I plan on doing. So I will carry that, plus do one diver ‘rock bottom-like’ calculations to know how much back gas I can use. Actually, since I plan on using al80s for all dives in the near future, I have done the calculations in advance, and know what my minimum pressure is for various depths.

You are absolutely counting on both your back gas and the pony being working and available if needed.

No, I'm counting on my pony to be there if I have a critical failure, or if my buddy has a critical failure. Just like an octo.

 

[CIBDiving]

I've been to busy giving the DIR guys a bad time to answer you.

I use the EXACT same rigging - although I use a slung pony.
I see no reason to use an octo either. It's of no use if you have a major problem with the main and is instead a failure point.

BUT I dive almost exclusivly solo. I will only dive with team of 3 if I'm not solo ( maybe 1 out of 100 dives). I make sure the others know of and are ok with the Fact that I can't help them fully - only as a stop gap till the other buddy can be brought in.
In other words I don't pretend to be a 'buddy'.

Your setup is wrong for diving with a buddy.

 

[JeffG]

I've been to busy giving the DIR guys a bad time to answer you.

Actually, your not.

 

[CIBDiving]

Actually, your not.

You're right - I'm rarely too busy to debunk DIR BS.