NTSB-like clearinghouse for diving accidents?

[trtldvr]

I don't think that's correct. (And if it were, how would they get the fatality info since dead men tell no tales . . . and don't release their info?) My understanding is that the Chambers submit the info to DAN and simply redact (cross out) anything that can identify a specific person.

As some of you may know, I'm a forensic consultant for the LA County Coroner. For scuba fatalities out here, I test the equipment and write an accident analysis that's then part of the overall autopsy report and which is public information.

One of the things we've wrestled with is how to make this information more accessible to the public. I truly believe (as do the two main Coroner's Investigators - both of whom are divers) that making this info publicly acccessible can help prevent future accidents. And for those worried about liability (I also do work as a defendant's expert witness) these reports are available to plaintiff's attorneys so it's not like anything would be revealed that isn't already known to the aggrieved parties.

We haven't solved the access issue yet (put it on the Coroner's website, the Catalina Chamber website, another website???) but one thing that we do is do an annual panel discussion at the Long Beach Scuba Show called "Why Divers Die" and give three actual case studies from the previous year, tell what the known facts of the accident, what treatment they got or didn't get at the Chamber, and what the subsequent gear testing and analysis found. We hope that, in some small way, we can elevate people's consciousness with these panels and improve diver safety.

I'd also be curious to know why DeputyDan and Sporket are against releasing this type of info.

- Ken

I am glad to see that there are others that understand the value of looking at accident info so we can learn (from a shop owner even, wow). Years ago when I was taking my open water class, the instructor felt it neccessary to look outside the classroom door to make sure the shop owner could not hear any time he was speaking of the dangers involved with our sport. It would seem that there are those that like to keep the blinders on. I guesse they feel that they cannot teach the world to dive, if you tell the world that is potentially dangerous. The fact is that there are some people that have no business diving. Yes, diving is often a relaxing sport, but it can become very strenuous very quickly, without warning. This requires at least some degree of physical fitness. Look at the data out there. Divers, like the general population are dieing from heart attacks. There are always those that say "it could have happened on the golf course". Yes, but what may be survivable on a par 4, with a cardiologist at the next tee, becomes a different story in a 1/4 knot current with a 4ft swell.
OK I feel better now. I will get off my soap box

Safe and fit dives
trtldvr
Florida Keys Safe Diving Initiative

 

[Jeff Toorish]

I would be 100% against it.

I agree, Dan.

One of the reasons for the NTSB database of accidents is because the entire flying industry is highly regulated. The only possible way to do the same thing regarding diving is if diving were to become highly regulated.

I sincerely doubt that would reduce accidents, but it would dramatically change the way we dive.

By way of full disclosure, I fly planes recreationally. I believe there is an important need for flight regulation. A plane, improperly handled, can fall from the sky and kill innocent folks on the ground. In SCUBA, we don't really have to worry about somehow popping out of the water and harming some innocent bystander.

I'm satisfied with the dive accident information compiled by DAN and, frankly, the accident discussions and dissection here on ScubaBoard.

Jeff

 

[mkutyna]

Basically, any data is better than no data, and even small sample sets can yield good results.

I'd much rather have no data than wrong data presented as correct data.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

In SCUBA, we don't really have to worry about somehow popping out of the water and harming some innocent bystander.

Actually, I don't think that's an accurate statement.

As I mentioned, I do work as an expert (defense) witness in scuba cases. I'm currently involved in two cases where divers have (IMHO) harmed themsevles and are suing people not involved directly in the dive, but whom happen to be convenient targets to points fingers at and go, "It was THEIR fault!!!" These cases take time and are emotionally draining for the defendants who feel they're wrongly accused.

And how about the emotional strain/damage on the people who have to perform a rescue on a diver who didn't bother to turn their air on and is now blue on the deck and we're doing CPR? Don't think there aren't "innocent bystanders" in scuba accidcents. There are.

I've still yet to see anyone explain the downside of open, thorough accident reporting/analysis that's accessible to the public. And I firmly believe that the more you talk about these things and the more people know about what went wrong, you DO stand a good chance of reducing the number of accidents just by people not making the same mistake twice.

To argue against the idea that knowledge can help make you safer would then mean you'd have to argue that continuing education or even just basic training doesn't help make for safer divers because it doesn't matter what you know or how you know it. Doesn't make sense to me.

- Ken

 

[trtldvr]

I've still yet to see anyone explain the downside of open, thorough accident reporting/analysis that's accessible to the public. And I firmly believe that the more you talk about these things and the more people know about what went wrong, you DO stand a good chance of reducing the number of accidents just by people not making the same mistake twice.

To argue against the idea that knowledge can help make you safer would then mean you'd have to argue that continuing education or even just basic training doesn't help make for safer divers because it doesn't matter what you know or how you know it. Doesn't make sense to me.

- Ken[/quote]


Dive safety thru education? Novel idea.


Safe dives
trtldvr
www.divealive.org

 

[Garrobo]

Any time the gov't is involved in an activity, the activity will be curtailed to some extent because of new rules, licensing, bureaucrocratic meddling, etc. I don't think that this would help the dive industry or divers in any way. Definitely against anything even resembling gov't intrusion.

 

[Captain12Pk]

Any time the gov't is involved in an activity, the activity will be curtailed to some extent because of new rules, licensing, bureaucrocratic meddling, etc. I don't think that this would help the dive industry or divers in any way. Definitely against anything even resembling gov't intrusion.

Amen That.

 

[littlewaywelt]

I would have thought that this would have come up before, but I couldn't find anything anywhere...

What would it take to create a public database of diving accidents? The NTSB accident DB (one page is at http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/AccList.asp?month=2&year=2008 )
is widely used by manufacturers, instructors and student pilots.

I've seen the DAN summaries, but never the raw incident data. And I don't know how that data is collected. I assume voluntary, but it's certainly not comprehensive. For this forum we seem to be stuck with general media reports and eyewitnesses who come forward for the incident information...

Obviously the NTSB (and FAA) DBs are created as part of the regulatory process, and have lots of dedicated staff, but even having an overall searchable DB, even without the full analysis would be helpful.

I see a few problems:

1. I would not want to see additional govt regulation of our sport, so having this be a govt function would be problematical.

2. Liability - NTSB/FAA reports are used in legal proceedings, we wouldn't want to be in that situation.

3. Neutrality - this would have to be independent of all the certification agencies and manufacturers, for obvious reasons.

4. Cost - Who would pay?

On the one hand, it would be a great resource for addressing systemic and repeating issues that continue to be problems. If a practice is causing problems, let's improve training, or gear so that we reduce the impact of that practice.

On the other hand, this would take lots of time and money and expertise.

Would it be worth it?

It would absolutely be worth cataloging the reports.

In the climbing world there's a wonderful publication that comes out annually called Accidents in North American Mountaineering, published by The American Alpine Club. It's an amazing book reporting ALL accidents in North America which result in use of ems or are self reported. It's organized by state, then area. Each accident lists location, causes, eye witness or participant commentary and contributing factors. The knowledge it offers has probably saved many climbers' lives. I know I'm a better climber for reading it.

I could easily see the same thing done in the diving world, but I wouldn't want to see it done by a gvt entity. Seems like the kind of publication someone like DAN should put out. ANAM was the brainchild of a single individual (Jed Williamson) who began chronicalling and recording what was going wrong. It's still his endeavor and is now the single best source of climbing accident statistics.

Diving accidents are, I suspect, much like climbing accidents in that they're nearly always pilot error and the result of several things going wrong, along with the pilot not being aware of those things and recognizing what's going on. ANAM is a lifesaver of a publication, and I've never heard of a single climber saying it's a bad thing.

 

[trtldvr]

Any time the gov't is involved in an activity, the activity will be curtailed to some extent because of new rules, licensing, bureaucrocratic meddling, etc. I don't think that this would help the dive industry or divers in any way. Definitely against anything even resembling gov't intrusion.

I understand your sceptisism. The idea to be afraid when someone sais, "I am from the government, and I am here to help" is well founded. But I can only speak for what we have been able to accomplish here in the Florida Keys.

The Florida Keys Safe Dive Initiative was formed in the fall of 2006 to educate, not regulate. The Initiatve is a joint effort from The Coast Guard Sector Key West, Monroe County Sheriff"s Office, Key West Police Department, Florida Keys Community College, Florida Fish and Wild Life, National Marine Sanctuary, Florida Keys Tourist Development Council and Lower Keys Medical Center. We have recently had dive opporators representing the upper,middle and lower keys join our commitee as well. Last year thruogh a public awareness ad campaign we had an 80% reduction in fatalities during lobster mini-season.

We are currently making plans for this years mini-season as well as developing a campaign geared towards safety in wreck diving. This new campaign will coincide with the Vandenberg as well as adress safety on our other wrecks. Many of us remember last years accident on the Spiegle very well, because we were involved in the recovery. We did not put any leagle barriers on diving the Spiegle after that, nor do we have any intention or desire to put any restrictions on diving the Vandenberg when it is sunk this spring. Our only mission is to educate. Having a data base of info to work from assist in properly focusing our efforts.

Safe dives
trtldvr
AKA Bob Guhl
Chairman Florida Keys Safe Dive Initiative

Florida Keys Safe Diving Initiative
website updates coming soon

 

[tedwhiteva]

I understand your sceptisism. The idea to be afraid when someone sais, "I am from the government, and I am here to help" is well founded. But I can only speak for what we have been able to accomplish here in the Florida Keys.

The Florida Keys Safe Dive Initiative was formed in the fall of 2006 to educate, not regulate. The Initiatve is a joint effort from The Coast Guard Sector Key West, Monroe County Sheriff"s Office, Key West Police Department, Florida Keys Community College, Florida Fish and Wild Life, National Marine Sanctuary, Florida Keys Tourist Development Council and Lower Keys Medical Center. We have recently had dive opporators representing the upper,middle and lower keys join our commitee as well. Last year thruogh a public awareness ad campaign we had an 80% reduction in fatalities during lobster mini-season.

We are currently making plans for this years mini-season as well as developing a campaign geared towards safety in wreck diving. This new campaign will coincide with the Vandenberg as well as adress safety on our other wrecks. Many of us remember last years accident on the Spiegle very well, because we were involved in the recovery. We did not put any leagle barriers on diving the Spiegle after that, nor do we have any intention or desire to put any restrictions on diving the Vandenberg when it is sunk this spring. Our only mission is to educate. Having a data base of info to work from assist in properly focusing our efforts.

Safe dives
trtldvr
AKA Bob Guhl
Chairman Florida Keys Safe Dive Initiative

Florida Keys Safe Diving Initiative
website updates coming soon

Bob, what you and the agencies are doing is a great inititiative! And as usual it had to come about from a result of people doing stupid things and dying. Which is just where the NTSB came about from.
And, by the way, where vis inspections and hydro tests came from.