NTSB CONCEPTION HEARING - THIS TUESDAY @ 10AM

[scubadada]

Couple of random thoughts based on recent posts:
1. One of my divers suggested a sunset clause on grandfathering. In other words, you have 5 or 10 years to comply with the new standard so it gives you time to adapt or decide that the vessel can't be brought into compliance.
2. As for fiberglass-over-wood vessels - which is a large majority of certainly the CA fleet - NTSB Chair Sumwalt said in the press briefing he thought they all ought to be retired.
3. Mexico did just that a number of years ago, refusing to re-certify any wooden boats (which is why the Don Jose went out of service).
4. I think Mike Lever and Nautilus have an exceeleltn reputation and run a good operation as well. Ironically, Glen Fritzler and Truth Aquatics had that same reputation before the fire. The question really isn't what is tyour reputation before a problme, but that if there's a major accident and your entire operation is gone over with a fine-toothed comb and put under a microscope, what will your reputation be once that process is completed. And I would posit that no one's as good as they think they are. There's always room for improvement or criticism.

Hi @Ken Kurtis

So, operators can have an equally good reputation, regardless of their practices, until they have a problem, that makes their errors in practice glaringly obvious. This applies to Truth Aquatics following the Conception, and to the Aggressor Fleet, following the Red Sea Aggressor I.

The difference now, is that many of us will be paying much more attention to safely issues, and asking important questions. I took a Nautilus boat to the Revillagigedos at the end of May, 2019. I was impressed with the attention to safety, but did not fully appreciate it until 3 months later, for the Conception, and 5 months later, for the Red Sea Aggressor I.

I am encouraging reviewers of liveaboards, both publications and individuals, to use a safety checklist in their reviews. Perhaps this will help us recognize poor practices, before a tragedy makes it obvious to all.

 

[BackAfter30]

Thankfully it was a breaker that blew and not the actual wires in this case, but I would be entirely unsurprised if someplace else they'd just put in a bigger breaker as customers started bringing in more "extension blocks", and called it a job well done.

This is exactly how it is supposed to work. You could have 1000 15A receptacles on a 15A circuit and you are still fine. The problem happens when: the electrical system is mis-designed from the start, today not really an issue; poor workmanship when building a properly designed system, buy from quality producers; a system modified by someone who doesn't have any business modifying the electrical system because they don't understand electricity, THIS is the big problem. There is zero excuse for ever putting in a larger circuit protection device than belongs there. Anyone who doesn't understand this is just the sort of person who has no business touching the electrical system.

 

[Ayisha]

...This applies to Truth Aquatics following the Conception, and to the Aggressor Fleet, following the Red Sea Aggressor I...

For me personally, I'm not sure that my impression of Aggressor overall has suffered greatly, since the Red Sea Aggressor 1 was franchised. I understand that Aggressor put their name on it. I suspect they have been and will be very diligent in ensuring safety and quality control in their franchisees since then. Perhaps too little, too late for many.

I was on the Belize Aggressor III in April 2019, and found them to be extremely safety conscious, especially regarding fire. All dive electronics had to be charged at the charging station on deck. We were allowed to charge no more than a phone in our cabin, and only while we were in there. They warned that if electronics were found charging in the cabins while we were out, we would get one warning and then the electronics would be confiscated if found charging again. The captain told us how the coverings throughout were fire resistant.
I saw the night watchman walking around every night until I went to bed between 1 and 3 AM and he made my buddy a coffee at about 4 - 4:30 AM, when she was up and out for the day.

Contrast this with all other liveaboards I went on where we charged in our bunks/cabins below deck, and we never saw a night watch. I'm an extreme night owl, and my buddies are up shortly after I go to bed, and we were quite sure between us that we never saw a night watch. Thank God for passengers being up at all hours or even sleeping under the stars.

The only Catalina liveaboard that I ever went on was the very old looking Bottom Scratcher in 2007 with my LDS and with @Sam Miller III's son, and Dr Sam 4 used to work on it decades prior. I had no experience with Truth Aquatics, so I have little else to base a decision on other than this tragic loss of life.

I will be doing more research and asking more questions of all liveaboards, that's for sure.

 

[KevinNM]

4. I think Mike Lever and Nautilus have an exceeleltn reputation and run a good operation as well. Ironically, Glen Fritzler and Truth Aquatics had that same reputation before the fire. The question really isn't what is tyour reputation before a problme, but that if there's a major accident and your entire operation is gone over with a fine-toothed comb and put under a microscope, what will your reputation be once that process is completed. And I would posit that no one's as good as they think they are. There's always room for improvement or criticism.

If you have a mass casualty event the odds are that something went wrong with your operation, and it went wrong a long time ago. People don't just come into NASA one day and announce "I think we should ignore all the regulations about foam and damage to the space shuttle tile system we've religiously followed for the last twenty years because it's all ********. Are you all with me?"

It's generally a long process where people push the edges of acceptability until you are far past the point where a dispassionate expert would say "This is NOT safe." But the people involved are not dispassionate.

So from the outside things may seem fine because everyone on the inside thinks things are fine and dispassionate experts rarely get involved when everything seems fine. This is why safety culture is critical, which says you do not take shortcuts, you do things methodically and by the checklist/manual.

 

[scubadada]

Hi @Ayisha

I appreciate your opinion. I spent 2 weeks on the Red Sea Aggressor I in 2016. The boat was audited by the Aggressor VP of Operations, Larry Speaker, during the second week. It seemed like a safe boat to me.

I have also gone on the Okeanos Aggressor II to Cocos, the Galapagos Aggresseor III, and the Cayman Aggressor V. They all seemed to be safe boats.

Two months after the Conception tragedy, the Red Sea Aggressor i caught fire and sunk, with one passenger losing her life. I don't think this reflects well on the Aggressor Fleet, despite my previous good experiences. Unfortunately, we will not learn from this episode, as essentially no information is available.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

For me personally, I'm not sure that my impression of Aggressor overall has suffered greatly, since the Red Sea Aggressor 1 was franchised. I understand that Aggressor put their name on it. I suspect they have been and will be very diligent in ensuring safety and quality control in their franchisees since then. Perhaps too little, too late for many.

I read some of the survivor statements from the RS1 accident. (It may have even been here on SB.) They stated that because the Conception fire was so fresh in everyone's minds, they had not only discussed it, but specifically asked about a overnight watchperson and were assured that there would be one every night. Yet when the fire broke out, there was no watchperson on duty. The entire crew was asleep. So it really goes back to the points that have been made here as well as made during the NTSB hearing that a lot of what we rely on for safety is human-dependent and therefore is only as effective/strong/safe as the humans we rely on to implement those safety protocols.

 

[scubadada]

So, roving night watchman is pivotal in our safety. How do we document the activities of a night watchman? I don't think it is that difficult in modern times, an electronic record of the watchman's route. Come on now, this is simple.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

Hi @Ayisha

I appreciate your opinion. I spent 2 weeks on the Red Sea Aggressor I in 2016. The boat was audited by the Aggressor VP of Operations, Larry Speaker, during the second week. It seemed like a safe boat to me.

I have also gone on the Okeanos Aggressor II to Cocos, the Galapagos Aggresseor III, and the Cayman Aggressor V. They all seemed to be safe boats.

Two months after the Conception tragedy, the Red Sea Aggressor i caught fire and sunk, with one passenger losing her life. I don't think this reflects well on the Aggressor Fleet, despite my previous good experiences. Unfortunately, we will not learn from this episode, as essentially no information is available.

I referred earlier to issues on the Socorro Aggressor as well:

Socorro Aggressor?

My Week on The Socorro Aggressor

In the aftermath of Conception and RSA I, the boat's entire electrical system short-circuiting seems like a massive NOPE.

 

[Wookie]

So, roving night watchman is pivotal in our safety. How do we document the activities of a night watchman? I don't think it is that difficult in modern times, an electronic record of the watchman's route. Come on now, this is simple.

Ah, well, the IMO has come up with a method to do just this. All licensed mariners were required at one point to possess a TWIC card, a Transportation Workers Identification Credential. That card is issued by TSA, after completing a background check and security clearance. I have one, every licensed mariner has one. They cost the mariner $135 every 5 years. Readers are made for these TWICs, they are a chip encoded card, just like a chip credit card. The reader may be at the facility gate, it may be at the entrance to the engineroom, it may be at the gangway to the ship, it may be at the turnstile between the parking lot and the pier. It just depends on where in the IMO you fall where security is required. On SOLAS vessels, there is a TWIC reader on the door to the wheelhouse and the door to the engineering spaces.

At one time, not long after 9/11, all US passenger boats were going to have TWIC readers installed. Then the lobbying firms got involved, and now the only place a TWIC card is required in getting into a port where foreign-flagged ships dock.

But, the system is there and available for a watchman to insert his TWIC card every time (s)he makes rounds and a record is kept of what spaces were checked.

But it costs money.

 

[The Chairman]

But, the system is there and available for a watchman to insert his TWIC card every time (s)he makes rounds and a record is kept of what spaces were checked.

You can set up something similar using a Raspberry Pi for cheap. A baton with a magnet in the end and bunch of magnetic switches wherever they need to check.