Now it's time to choose a wrist computer.

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It seems to me that an algorithm designed primarily for the rec diver community would be more on the conservative side
Usually it's the other way around, with planned decompression dives dialing in more conservatism or less risk. The recreational diver will normally be under the "line" they have drawn in the sand. I've left the bottom with 1 minute of NDL time remaining, which greatly increases during ascent. In other words, not very close to the line at all.

In fairness, it's possible for a rec diver to get closer to the line with a more gradual ascent. However, a technical diver is approaching that line from the other side.
 
I think any op that pulls a diver out of the water with mandatory deco on their DC deserves to be taken out and shot. They're welcome to chew my *ss off afterwards but if they're pulling me out with deco on the clock, AFAIMC they're trying to kill me and it's only fair if I return the favour.

Funny.

I thought that at Cocos they pull you out of the water that fast so that the tiger shark doesn't chew your *ss off
 
So would "the most liberal of them" be 0 or 5 on my SEAC Screen (or for that matter, any other computer that uses that scale)?
And you're comparing the most liberal of the scale to DSAT?
And DSAT is considered "the only model actually designed and tested for recreational diving"?
It seems to me that an algorithm designed primarily for the rec diver community would be more on the conservative side. I'm trying not to be dense or split hairs. But something seems backward to me.

Here's what I'm understanding so tell me what I have wrong okay:
0 = the most liberal setting.
5 = the most conservative setting.
DSAT could be seen as a more conservative dive algorithm better suited for rec divers.
ZH-L16C could be seen as a more liberal dive algorithm better suited for the experienced and tech divers.

And when you say "bare" ZH-L16C, does that mean what my manual is calling ZH-L16C "unmodified"?
I think you are looking at it backwards. Liberal verses conservative isn’t really about experience, it’s about risk tolerance. There isn’t a clear line where you will get bent. It’s actually pretty fuzzy and can move around based on a lot of weird factors (health, hydration, physical exertion, gas mix etc…). A diver can think they are walking up to it and accidentally step over or they can stay so far from the edge they are curtailing dives unnecessarily. The only time you for sure know where the line is is after you have crossed it.

New divers tend to be more conservative because during training they had the NDL bashed into them mercilessly. A more nuanced diver might decided they are willing to use more liberal settings because of fitness and other risk factors are reduced. Others may simply think because they haven’t been hit in the past, they won’t be hit in the future. That is risk normalization.

At the end of the day, it is a personal choice. You will only be informed when you are wrong With a negative outcome.
 
Hi @SaltyCracker

It is encouraging that you are attempting to learn more about your dive computer. Many divers never understand how their computer works.

On page 8 of your user manual, it states your computer uses Buhlmann ZH-L16C. This is the base decompression algorithm. Conservatism is controlled by adjusting the gradient factors (GFs), more later
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On page 10 of your user manual, it states you have six levels of conservatism, numbered from 0 to 5. Zero is the most liberal, 5 is the most conservative. Unfortunately, as is very common, they do not tell you what GFs the conservative settings correspond to.
1640869809755.png


Back in December, 2019, I corresponded with Seac. After some prodding, they supplied me with a table of the GFs they use. The most liberal setting (L0) uses a GF high of 85. This would be considered moderate or middle of the road along the spectrum. You can compare it to 40/85 in my previous post Now it's time to choose a wrist computer. Setting L2 uses a GF high of 75, this would be considered quite conservative. This corresponds to 35/75 in my previous post. L3-L5 are increasing, even more conservative.
1640869980158.png


DSAT and Buhlmann cannot really be directly compared because the two deco algorithms behave differently on 1st dives and then on repetitive dives. I have nearly 2100 dives with DSAT and am very confident in its use. I now have a little over 900 dives using Buhlmann and DSAT together. Buhlmann gives me features, not available with DSAT, that I am very fond of. I have posted previously on specific characteristics of DSAT vs. Buhlmann, this is one example DSAT vs GF high 95, examples In general, DSAT is more liberal than GF high 95 on the first dive, especially, if deeper. GF95 tends to become more liberal than DSAT on repetitive dives, especially, shallower. A longer SI tends to return the advantage to DSAT. I used to try to match DSAT and Buhlmann, it took too much attention and work. For quite a while, I just leave my Teric at a GF high of 95. As I said earlier, I dive my more conservative computer for no stop and clear one or both if light deco is the plan.

DSAT, as the PADI Recreational Dive Planner, or the Pelagic Pressure Systems computer decompression algorithm, has been around for nearly 35 years. DSAT helped make recreational diving what it is today. By decreasing the duration of the controlling compartment, surface intervals were shortened to the point where multiple repetitive dives could be done in a day.

So, @SaltyCracker only you will be able to decide how you and your son dive your computers. I hope this thread and future endeavors help you make an informed decision. You will not be one of the befuddled divers asking me why their computer is not working when they are in violation gauge mode. Enjoy your diving, there is nothing I enjoy more than diving with my family.
 
I guess you did not read my posts. The majority of my dives are no stop. Only about 5% of my dives are light deco, mostly under 10 min, always under 15 min. You probably also missed my post about SurfGF and surfacing GF.

Enjoy your diving

You do understand what the GF hi of 95 means?

You have moved the surfacing control pressure value closer to the original ZH-L16C M value. i.e you have increased the allowable controlling surface tissue tension.
This will of course allow longer NDL times.

If the restriction is that you must only do dives within the NDL limit, then you have achieved your goal, i.e. you can now spend longer in the water before you cross the NDL threshold. However, this is done whilst increasing the risk of DCI.

If you move the GF-Hi down, then for the same bottom time, you will be required to do a decompression stop, increase total surface to surface time. But, when you exit the water your tissue tensions will be lower. (The amount of inert gas in the tissues will be reduced).

Someone in the thread said that Technical computers (Buhlmann + GF) allow 'Technical Divers' to be more aggressive. If anything, the opposite is true, those using GF's tend to move to a more conservative set of tables.
The major difference between 'Technical computers using Buhlmann and GF's (or VPM etc), over Recreational computers. Is that, Technical Dive computers, use open source unmodified algorithms such as the Buhlmann ZH-L16C, so we know what we are getting for our money.
The Recreational computers, Suunto (et al), use proprietary tables. Whilst they may state they are Buhlmann, RGBM etc, they are all 'padded' with additional manufacturers 'safety features'; cold water compensation, repetitive dive penalties, saw tooth profile penalties, etc.
(So the original assumption that Technical Divers run more aggressive profiles is partially correct, they have no padding.)
The reason that GF's are used, is to make the 'published' table (algorithm) more conservative (add padding).
There is a reason that Shearwater ships their computers with GF's of 30/70, this is the 'safe' setting.
(From memory, I believe the non-technical settings don't allow the GF's to be altered, just three basic settings, normal, conservative, aggressive - although that may be the Peregrine, or I have mis remembered.)

I do know divers who run GF Hi at 100. But these are on the backups, not the primary devices, these are the KYAGB plans. i.e. this is the plan to get out of the water alive, but with the likelihood of a helicopter ride to the nearest chamber.

My decompression theory is very 'rusty' these days. I also don't keep in touch with current thinking as much as I used to. However, like many, I have moved away from deep stop and VPM ( i never really used VPM), extending the shallow water stop and reducing surfacing tissue tension.

I was always taught, the most dangerous point is the NDL threshold.
Interestingly, having worked with a number of instructors who where taught by differing agencies, in differing countries under differing philosophies, it is the one constant - stay away from the NDL threshold.
One of the big advantages of the 'safety stop', other than the obvious, slowing the ascent. Is that the safety stop is a forced decompression stop, by definition, moving you further away from the NDL threshold by the time you finally surface.

Ultimately, we all choose the amount of risk we are prepared to take. I am, despite what many think, risk averse. Yes I dive a CCR, yes I do dive trimix, yes, I switched to Nitrox early. Yes, I do decompression dives.
I used to do long dives, with long decompression penalties on air. I would not do the same now, nitrox wasn't available then. Yes, long decompression hangs are not an issue, but, not on air. 20 minutes extra on the stop is preferred over a helicopter ride, or a ride in the big orange boat.
 
You don't necessarily always have the opportunity to do this. Sometimes you have a maximum run time. you may not be able to easily exceed this due to you deco obligation. Sometimes you need to ascend as a group and board the boat promptly at the end of the safety stop. The ascent at the outside of Manuelita at Cocos is an example after the Tiger Shark episodes. Regardless, other may be intolerant of you having to comply with a deco requirement when nobody else has one.

You're wrong, it' s your planning, you're responsible for it. Nobody is going to pull you from the water for satisfying a deco stop, but they may prevent you from doing an additional dive.

It entirely relates to the profiles and SIs. Yours were within acceptable standards.

You may or may not have the opportunity, I guess you have not dived under these conditions

Suuntos do not like short surface intervals. The boat is generally responsible for those, unless you decide to do two trips with different operators on the same day.

I have done week long liveaboards with Suuntos doing four dives a day and not had trouble as the boats start early and end late. On the other hand go to places Where they want to run two trips with different customers morning and afternoon and those will have short SIs. That is a risk that falls to the customer and personally I will always do the deco.

In general though I see staff on all these sorts of warm water trips using Suuntos or similar cheap computers so it all works out fine in the end.
 
Therefore, with extensive experience and higher skill, "technical divers who know better" are able to safely make that judgement
These are generally technical divers who THINK they know better.

In anycase nobody decides anything based on the per compartment view, only the leading compartment which produces SurfGF, GF99 and and anticipated leading compartments that result in time to surface (TTS). The bar chart gets stale very fast too.
 
There is a reason that Shearwater ships their computers with GF's of 30/70, this is the 'safe' setting.
(From memory, I believe the non-technical settings don't allow the GF's to be altered, just three basic settings, normal, conservative, aggressive - although that may be the Peregrine, or I have mis remembered.)
Not misremembered, just not true anymore. I can't comment on the Peregrine, but I would imagine it would be the same. When I first got my Perdix AI, the Technical view allowed fully customizable GFs. Rec mode only allowed selecting from one of the 3 presets.

This was changed with firmware version 65. Now, both Tec and Rec mode allow fully customizable GFs. The three presets are there, but the user can also select custom. The Peregrine was initially shipped with a later firmware, so I believe the same is true for the Peregrine.
 
Hi @Gareth J

You and I do very different diving. I do my best to describe my diving in my posts. I dive an Oceanic computer running DSAT and a Shearwater computer running 80/95. Since acquiring the Teric, 2 1/2 years ago, my average surfacing GF has been 55, with a range of 13-80. That ends up looking a lot like diving a GF high of 80. My diving is much more conservative than many would think.

Some of my dives have general run time limits, some operators prohibit deco diving. I take those aspects into consideration in planning my dives. Some of my dives, most of those in the Red Sea, Cocos, Galapagos, Revillagigedos, and Malpelo, were with small groups that descended and ascended together. NDL and gas were never really a consideration in those situations.

I don't tell anyone how they should use dive computers. My goal is to help people understand the topic so that they can make an informed decision. I try to limit the information to that within my own sphere of experience. It is my impression that many divers do not have a clue to how their dive computers

Very best and good diving
 
Not misremembered, just not true anymore. I can't comment on the Peregrine, but I would imagine it would be the same. When I first got my Perdix AI, the Technical view allowed fully customizable GFs. Rec mode only allowed selecting from one of the 3 presets.

This was changed with firmware version 65. Now, both Tec and Rec mode allow fully customizable GFs. The three presets are there, but the user can also select custom. The Peregrine was initially shipped with a later firmware, so I believe the same is true for the Peregrine.
Can confirm the peregrine allows custom GFs (that was in the announcement, and was the first thing I changed when I got mine)
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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