Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[DaleC]

If the concern is mere legality I would suspect that not renting a tank to a certified diver may carry unintended consequences for a shop. It suggests some form of assumed liability for determining the intent of the user (which the shop has no obligation to assume but has). Should another renting diver die from equipment misuse, could an argument not be made that said shop should have worked harder to know what that diver intended, seeing as they have set precedence and championed themselves to being the determiner of unsafe applications.

Morally speaking, there are so many concerns that I wouldn't know where to start. Do shops worry about teaching obese people to dive, old people, stupid people... They certainly have an increased risk of accident/death while participating in the sport. Or, do they just teach - if the credit card clears.

 

[chillyinCanada]

The OP was there and heard Grandpa. He had an ancient reg that needed servicing. The OP chose not to rent him a tank. Screw liability. The OP was there and made the determination. Seems likely to me the initial reason to decline the tank rental was more gutteral than concern about liability; concern for the children.

The old fart had probably been regaling the children with tales of his youthful daring do and the grandkids may or may not have said "show us grandpa, show us". At that point his male ego and grandpaness became involved. Then some young whippersnappers tried to tell him what was what.

You want a little duffer to know what it's like to breathe in the water with their head at the surface. Stick a snorkel in their mouths. Sheesh

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Should another renting diver die from equipment misuse, could an argument not be made that said shop should have worked harder to know what that diver intended, seeing as they have set precedence and championed themselves to being the determiner of unsafe applications.

A solid point - any plaintiff's attorney worth their contingency fee will explore whether shop employees engaged in this kind of 'I'm going to decide who's safe enough to rent tanks based on my imagined expertise rather than checking C-cards' behavior.

 

[DaleC]

The OP chose not to rent him a tank. Screw liability...

I'm not commenting on this particular case (I wasn't there), just the fact that sometimes what we think will safe guard us legally actually implicates us more.

The same case could be made for dive clubs that have a designated "safety person" on duty for club dives. You know, the person who goes around and checks everyone's gear, makes sure their valves are turned on, logs in and out pressures etc... Seems a bizarre practice to me but I have seen it done. We discussed it in our club and decided we were a social organization only, and not responsible for individual safety. That onus is squarely placed on each divers shoulders as per the precedent set by certification. Of course we may help a new diver etc... (usually by buddying with them) but the club itself assumes no overarching role as monitor.

Again, not speaking specifically about the OP, but this also has a bit to do with the difference I see in shops. Some are run like businesses, taking the role of simply providing a service or goods. Others are run as an extension of the owners ego, in which they set themselves up as a pseudo Seth lord subjecting the minions to their illuminated opinion. This is the place that makes you feel welcome when you're new and lapping up the wisdom but decidedly out of place once you develop a few ideas of your own (especially if they differ from the owner). It's an easy model to fall into but often suffers from retention issues if there are other alternatives around.

Personally, I like a shop that just sells me what I need and has very little opinion on what I do.

 

[AdivingBel]

I see kids at dive resorts in the pool playing with Mommie & Daddie's Spare Air all the time, UNSUPERVISED. At least Gramps was going to supervise them. I don't think it was any of your business what Gramps was going to do with the tank if he had a C-card (just like it's none of my business what you do in your dive shop as long as laws aren't broken). Gramps should have kept his mouth shut, but he probably wasn't used to the world where we wrap everything in bubble wrap and then wrap ourselves "just to be safe." Enough with "well, just think of the children." We wonder where all the self-indulgence and narcissism in the world comes from...geez. Better scuba in the pool with Gramps than stoned in the living room playing video games. Now....you kids, get off my lawn.

 

[kelemvor]

Meh.. my first dive was in a concrete pool. I was using an ancient mk7 honker that hadn't been serviced in about 20 years. The guy showing me hadn't been diving in that long. Everything went okay, and I fell in love with diving then ran off to the LDS for classes. Really, what's to know in this situation other than don't hold your breath? Run ooa? stand up and breathe.

Fortunately, after 5 minutes at 6 feet I didn't get bent!


I'm curious if the OP could really be liable for renting this guy a tank? I mean the renter is a certified diver. Assuming those kids died, would the shop be on the hook? Certainly the guy would, but the shop that rented him a tank?

 

[Lorenzoid]

I'm curious if the OP could really be liable for renting this guy a tank? I mean the renter is a certified diver. Assuming those kids died, would the shop be on the hook? Certainly the guy would, but the shop that rented him a tank?

No, the shop wouldn't be on the hook. That would almost certainly be the determination of a court or the result of a settlement agreement after the shop had spent a year or more fending off the plaintiff, at great cost of time (or time and money, depending on insurance coverage). The point is: a shop is just being prudent by not dealing with people who announce their intention to do anything even slightly out of the norm with the rented gear.

 

[DaleC]

Doesn't a shop run that risk regardless of intent. People can attempt to sue over anything. I would think those who expect the shop to babysit and second guess their actions would be more likely than independent minded divers. Usually those that I come across are very up front about assuming responsibility for their own behavior.

I looked back at the OP and was struck by this statement:

"Why are these people so willing to risk the safety of their loved ones?"

It made me wonder why are so many people eager to become DM's and instructors and risk the safety of countless strangers? Statistically they are more likely to run into an accident over time than a one off family experience. I occasionally mentor newer divers and am always aware of the potential risks involved. What happens when someone you are teaching holds their breath and stands up in a pool or panics and bolts on their first open water dive. According to the pay scale I often hear quoted, people are happily assuming that risk for $4.99 (often the cost of a free tank fill).

FWIW, Here's my daughter at 8, with 40 year old gear in a pool. Now she's 13 and sometimes... and I know it's wrong... I kinda wish she drowned :shocked2:

 

[Lorenzoid]

Doesn't a shop run that risk regardless of intent. People can attempt to sue over anything. I would think those who expect the shop to babysit and second guess their actions would be more likely than independent minded divers. Usually those that I come across are very up front about assuming responsibility for their own behavior.

Sure, the shop is always taking a risk, but I think when someone announces an intent to do something out of the norm, it's reasonable if the shop wants to take their knowledge of that intent into account. If Grandpa had only not said anything other than that he planned to go diving, the shop could claim blissful ignorance.
. . .

It made me wonder why are so many people eager to become DM's and instructors and risk the safety of countless strangers? I occasionally mentor newer divers and am always aware of the potential risks involved. What happens when someone you are teaching holds their breath and stands up in a pool or panics and bolts on their first open water dive. According to the pay scale I often hear quoted, people are happily assuming that risk for $4.99 (often the cost of a free tank fill).

You risk more than your compensation as a DM. If you aren't well insured, you risk every asset you own. Got money in the bank? Got a car? A house?

 

[gbf]

The lesson granddad learned: Just tell them what you want, not what you want it for. If they ask, lie.

Example:

Grandpa:I want to rent a tank.

Store: What are you going to do with it?

Grandpa: Oh, I'm going to Grand Cayman next month, and I want to hook up everything just to check it out. I've been meticulously following the maintenance schedules for my regs, but if something leaks or fails I'll have time to bring it to you for your expert service. In fact, I may just bring everything in so you can overhaul everything. I don't want to die because I failed to change the oring and battery in my computer. And my BC... It's a little older and has never been serviced so it probably needs a complete service.

Then take the tank and leave.