Nobel Prize for Environmental Concern: Which Country?

[JustinW]

I agree with Rick.

Sorry Bill.

And I agree with Gary and Rick, not sorry about it either. Lunatic fringe elements of some other countries do some wierd stuff that makes them stand out in the community, but when looking at what is done as a whole, the good ol US of A has the rest of em beat, hands down. Forgive me, for I have said something positive about our Country. May the pacifists beat me.

 

[drbill]

I agree with Rick.

Sorry Bill.

No need... that is what makes this country pretty awesome (in most ways)! The right to disagree.

Don't seem to be receiving too many alternatives here.

 

[drbill]

...Forgive me, for I have said something positive about our Country. May the pacifists beat me.

Justin- Not sure where the logic is coming from there. What does a pro-environmental stand have to do with pacifism?

Again, there is no question that my country made some good leaps (given the prevailing state of knowledge) over the last 3-4 decades in the arena of the environment. However there are some serious signs of backsliding as part of an overly (IMHO) favorable environment for business... as long as there is a lobbyist with enough cash or other favors to sway your vote.

It seems that the only time the majority of people actually DO something is when their pocket books are affected. The switch to higher fuel efficiency from SUV's should have been a no brainer if people were being conscioous of their environmental impacts. Instead it took higher gas prices.

Businesses, too, often don't act until the threat of fines and penalties is imposed. To some degree this makes sense because it levels the playing field between competitors since all must comply or be faced with penalties.

Look at the solid waste issue. When I grew up, you could make a "fortune" by redeeming bottles found along the road. At least where I live, you pay the redemption value at the grocery or liquor store, but there is no place to redeem the bottles except via our municipal trash collection's recycling program (for which we do not get the redemption value).

This is still a pretty darned good place to live. However, the environment is a major issue to me. Despite decades of progress, I've seen a near continual degradation of the marine environment around my home here... with a few nice exceptions like the apparent recovery of the giant sea bass.

 

[gcbryan]

Bill, do you find that other countries act in some other way than you describe them to be in the US? Costa Rico's eco-tourist industry is in their best interest. If they had oil instead do you think that somehow they would not drill for it?

Japan and Europe are acting in their best interests when they support their rail system over road traffic because of their population densities. Do you think they would act vastly different than the way we act if given the same conditions that we face/enjoy here?

Most people here and in the rest of the world only do something when their pocketbooks are affected. That's not to say that most people don't want a clean and healthy earth. You live on an island so you can do without a car. In fact I don't think you are allowed to have a car. If you live in London, Paris, or New York you don't need a car. If you live in Wyoming you need a car. Are those living in the bigger cities more friendly toward a green earth policy? I would bet that most people in Wyoming are actually doing more for the earth.

I'm not making a major point here other than to say that green earth policies are better made with logic than with emotion. If you really examine why things are done in Costa Rico, Bonaire you will find that they are done for much the same reasons that we do things here. People are people everywhere.

 

[Potapko]

I agree with Rick.

Count me in the Pro USA group. In no other country do the businesses and individuals give as much directly to environmental causes as in the good ol USA. imo, what Governments give that they confiscated from their people against their will pales in comparison.

But I also agree with Bill. The right to openly disagree is foundational.

 

[dkktsunami]

And I agree with Gary and Rick, not sorry about it either. Lunatic fringe elements of some other countries do some wierd stuff that makes them stand out in the community, but when looking at what is done as a whole, the good ol US of A has the rest of em beat, hands down. Forgive me, for I have said something positive about our Country. May the pacifists beat me.

I agree with you guys all the way. Do you have any friends left in California?

 

[DavidPT40]

I'll just share a little anecdotal evidence here on why the U.S. probably isnt the World's best at preserving environments.

Last year, when I was in Panama City, Florida, I went deep sea fishing. The boat was large, and it carried about 100 fishermen. Now this was my first time deep sea fishing, so I wasn't sure what to expect. When we stopped at the first artificial reef and let our lines down, nothing was biting. So we reeled in and headed to the next reef. There the fish began biting, and people were hauling them in left and right. People were catching all kinds of things: Red snapper, groupers, trigger fish, remoras, soap fish, bonita tunas. The fish that were legal to keep were put on a stringer. The fish that were supposed to be thrown back were either killed due to their intestines popping out of them, left on the deck of the ship, or thrown into the mouthes of the dolphins following the vessel.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

Most people here and in the rest of the world only do something when their pocketbooks are affected. That's not to say that most people don't want a clean and healthy earth. You live on an island so you can do without a car. In fact I don't think you are allowed to have a car. If you live in London, Paris, or New York you don't need a car. If you live in Wyoming you need a car. Are those living in the bigger cities more friendly toward a green earth policy? I would bet that most people in Wyoming are actually doing more for the earth.

When living in Wyoming I have no problem with it if you drive a lot, even if you drive a huge SUV. That 4x4 will come in handy more than once I suppose. And I do live way outside the big cities myself and I need my old (1990) diesel Chevy 4x4 in my line of work. -But what on earth justifies running around in a 3 ton truck for "show off" in your spare time, or to and from office work if you live in San Diego, or Oslo for that matter, beats me. Lots of people with plenty of money for it do.

We use wood to heat our house, since the electricity turned expensive after a silly stunt by our former christian/conservative* government, opening for export and import of electricity**. Since we live in the woods more or less, that's pretty environmentally friendly. No extra contribution to the CO2 production. The prices of electricity has double 4 times in the past ten years.




* We have a new socialist government now, luckily.

** We used to have a closed market for electric power here. All our production of electric power is made with waterfalls (For now. Gas plants are being buildt...). -Ugly as the dams may be, at least they don't produce CO2. Now we are connected to the EU with power lines, and we contribute to production of CO2 in other contries since we've run out of water power and have to import power produced from brown coal in other countries. Nice move...

Well, so much for the Norwegian contribution. I'm sad to say I'm not very proud...

 

[gcbryan]

...
We use wood to heat our house, since the electricity turned expensive after a silly stunt by our former christian/conservative* government, opening for export and import of electricity**. Since we live in the woods more or less, that's pretty environmentally friendly. No extra contribution to the CO2 production. The prices of electricity has double 4 times in the past ten years.




* We have a new socialist government now, luckily.

** We used to have a closed market for electric power here. All our production of electric power is made with waterfalls (For now. Gas plants are being buildt...). -Ugly as the dams may be, at least they don't produce CO2. Now we are connected to the EU with power lines, and we contribute to production of CO2 in other contries since we've run out of water power and have to import power produced from brown coal in other countries. Nice move...

Well, so much for the Norwegian contribution. I'm sad to say I'm not very proud...

If electricity turned expensive it was because you were paying below market rates. The only way that you can do that is for your government to subsidize those rates and the only way that they can do that is by using your tax dollars. Eventually they run out of money when they have to increase your tax rates to the point where your economy can no longer stand it.

One ecological advantage to being hooked up to the EU power grid is that less power plants have to be built. If your country can no longer supply enough power for itself then it can either build a new power plant or import power from a country with excess capacity. Using power plants more efficiently ultimately results in lower market prices and results in less power plants being built.

 

[drbill]

Good to see some reasoned and reasonable debate here.

Gcbryan- You raise some good points about actions based on self-interest in other countries like Costa Rica and Bonaire. My housemate is Costa Rican. From what she tells me, much of the early history of conservation there was not stimulated by the desire to boost eco-tourism. It was more the interest of the people which triggered it, then the result was eco-tourism which reinforced the protections for that benefit.

I guess I'm a bit too "idealistic" (I'd prefer to think it is "realistic") in believing that people can (and should) act out of sincere and altruistic interest rather than self interest.