Nobel Prize for Environmental Concern: Which Country?
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grazie42:
I agree with your comments regarding who is really environmentally friendly. That's part of the problem. It's all just one world. Pushing the problems on to another country isn't really "friendly"
It's interesting though how complex problems really are. You can't just try to solve an environmental problem and ignore economic realities. People need jobs as well as a clean environment. Developed countries tend to have cleaner environments unless you compare them to countries with no economy.
Outsourcing for cheap labor is a good thing for the countries receiving that cheap labor. It's cheap if they had to take that income and live in a developed country. It's a living wage where they live. Unless the poorest countries can improve their living standards protecting the ecology isn't going to really be on their radar.
We often have problems with exporting jobs to poorer countries but then we say a number one priority is to help underdeveloped countries. We want to protect our farmers at home so we make it hard for developing countries to sell us their produce because we have subsidized our own farmers.
It's hard to make effective decisions in one area unless you make responsible decisions in all areas.
A "slight" hi-jack...
I think something needs to happen to the way our societies "work"...
In "primitive" societies about 4hrs a day is spent "working" the rest of the time is "free".
With all our advances you´d think that we´d be spending LESS time or at least not more time "working"...a lot of people belive that todays system is not sustainable long-term either and I´d tend to agree...
Kinda makes you wonder about all this "progress"...
I don´t have a "back to nature"-agenda but when you think about it...the way most of us live our lives makes no sense, at least not to me...there must be a "better" way to go about this...I think our economic systems need a restructuring...I´m not talking about communism either...it needs to be something that works and works well for most people and that is sustainable...of course I don´t see myself enjoying life without the benefits of technology, international travel etc and I obviously don´t have any answers...
I think something needs to happen to the way our societies "work"...
In "primitive" societies about 4hrs a day is spent "working" the rest of the time is "free".
With all our advances you´d think that we´d be spending LESS time or at least not more time "working"...a lot of people belive that todays system is not sustainable long-term either and I´d tend to agree...
Kinda makes you wonder about all this "progress"...
I don´t have a "back to nature"-agenda but when you think about it...the way most of us live our lives makes no sense, at least not to me...there must be a "better" way to go about this...I think our economic systems need a restructuring...I´m not talking about communism either...it needs to be something that works and works well for most people and that is sustainable...of course I don´t see myself enjoying life without the benefits of technology, international travel etc and I obviously don´t have any answers...
Years ago I was in Shri Lanka and rented a house for 3 months. I asked the owner how he wanted paying and he replied that it was up to me but if I wanted to pay him everything up front he'd go out and buy a new refrigerator for the house. This duly happened and we had the use of the most powerful refrigerator I've ever seen in my life. If you stuck a warm bottle of beer in the freezer within an hour it had exploded. At the time CFC gases from fridges were a big talking point as the West shifted to the production of slightly more environmentally friendly fridges that reduced the CFC problem when the fridge got old. This one seemed to be built to the old specs though - which was why it worked so effectively in the Shri Lankan heat. I ended up in a long discussion with the owner about these sorts of environmental issues. The guy was very intelligent and had a very good idea of the arguments globally. His main point though was that the West had already had it's industrial revolution - harming the environment in the process - and that more or less everyone already had their fridge/air-con etc there while the third world had a long way to go to play catchup. He saw attempts to saddle production of stuff in third world countries with environmental contraints as very unfair - after all, it wasn't those countires that had caused the problems in the first place. At the end of the day he didn't see that Shri Lankans would worry too much about environmental issues until they had reached a standard of living similar to what they saw the West enjoyed on the TV etc. This was a difficult point to disagree with or argue against.
Until the richest countries start setting a VERY good example and assisting the poorer peoples to attain a similar lifestyle to what they themselves expect and mostly have then countries like India and China won't have the will to listen IMO. While the West bases it's environmental decisions on whether or not it's going to be good for their own economies thereby demonstrating that they are only really interested in their short term economic gain, then we can only expect similar actions from the rest of the world. It's hard to be very optimistic given human nature - especially the kind that politicians seem to have.
Until the richest countries start setting a VERY good example and assisting the poorer peoples to attain a similar lifestyle to what they themselves expect and mostly have then countries like India and China won't have the will to listen IMO. While the West bases it's environmental decisions on whether or not it's going to be good for their own economies thereby demonstrating that they are only really interested in their short term economic gain, then we can only expect similar actions from the rest of the world. It's hard to be very optimistic given human nature - especially the kind that politicians seem to have.
grazie42:
I would disagree with primitive societies only working 4 hours a day. I think they work all the hours of the day. Try going out in the woods and doing all the things it takes to sustain live and you will see that it takes up most of your time.
I agree that you would think that in modern society we would be working less and less hours.
Slightly off track but I think that many different systems of government can work and there are trade-offs for each. I don't think you can ignore capitalism however as it seems to be more of a natural law than anything else
You can live in a more socialist based system and the government can do more for you. You can try to change aspects of capitalism that you don't like but ultimately you still have to deal with it regardless of what system you live in.
If you have an apple orchard in your front yard you will probably at one time or another have apples dropping on your head. If you don't like that fact you can try to legislate that apples not drop on ones head but they will anyway. If you are really intent on imposing your will over the apples you can legislate that all apple trees have netting surrounding the tree so no one will get hit by a falling apple. It's inefficient but if you want to use your tax dollars that way you can. It's better to just move the apple orchard to the backyard.
You can live in a more socialist based system and the government can do more for you. You can try to change aspects of capitalism that you don't like but ultimately you still have to deal with it regardless of what system you live in.
If you have an apple orchard in your front yard you will probably at one time or another have apples dropping on your head. If you don't like that fact you can try to legislate that apples not drop on ones head but they will anyway. If you are really intent on imposing your will over the apples you can legislate that all apple trees have netting surrounding the tree so no one will get hit by a falling apple. It's inefficient but if you want to use your tax dollars that way you can. It's better to just move the apple orchard to the backyard.
Yes, you'd think so. The problem for our planet though would be that the Moon is probably the closest backyard that we have and we'd probably have quite a struggle getting companies to re-locate!gcbryan:
Seriously though - shifting it simply to new locations on the planet doesn't really help as everything is tied together so wherever it is it'll end up biting us in the butt.
Frank Hayes
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Dr.Bill And all whom Have Posted, Thank you. This thread makes SB worth My time. Good Debate. Thanks Frank
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Yes, Frank, it has been an interesting debate and a civil one at that.
Capitalism certainly works fairly well, but I dislike the "base" motivations it caters to. However, I can't imagine a truly functional economic society without a tablespoon or two of capitalism in the mix.
Grazie42- I, too, have heard of "primitive" societies which are reported to have involved about a half a day (4 hours) of work to produce the necessities. However, I think many of them were based in milder climates like that of southern California or rich respources like the Pacific Northwest. In cultures that achieve this degree of liesure, the arts and spirituality seemed to have flourished.
Capitalism certainly works fairly well, but I dislike the "base" motivations it caters to. However, I can't imagine a truly functional economic society without a tablespoon or two of capitalism in the mix.
Grazie42- I, too, have heard of "primitive" societies which are reported to have involved about a half a day (4 hours) of work to produce the necessities. However, I think many of them were based in milder climates like that of southern California or rich respources like the Pacific Northwest. In cultures that achieve this degree of liesure, the arts and spirituality seemed to have flourished.
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