No Trolling?

[divemed06]

How is that different than “doing it right” divers deciding that there is only one way to DIR?

I say, let the diving principles stand on their own. If they can’t hold water, pun intended, than what are they worth?

It’s amazing how your morals are changing since you own the board. Didn’t you originally fight the DIR position “tooth and nail?” We could do a search, but since you own the board, it might not show up what one would expect.

Mike

Mike,

That seems like an unprovoked attack. It is not wrong to challenge or question DIR or anything else that has to do with diving on this board. There is nothing wrong with a good debate based on solid arguments. There is also nothing wrong with someone asking a legit question, even if it causes a bit of controversy. The problems arise when we decide to be impolite and not respect others and there ideas. There is a wealth of information to be gained in the DIR section as with any other section on the board. I think we all know what's appropriate and not appropriate in regards to what is posted on this board. We (all of us) have the power to make this board a great vehicle for the promotion of a sport/way of life we all enjoy. Let's not ruin it by acting foolishly. If we all take a second look at our posts before posting it, we can save Uncle Pug a bit of work and enjoy these stimulating discussions.

 

[The Chairman]

Oh yeah... I forgot to address the second part.

I am NOT a DIR diver, so I am not sure how my "morals" have changed or how they affect the DIR forum. I have ALWAYS believed that no agency should be bashed, and that goes both ways. Just because I don't agree with them on a host of issues does not give me the right to be pugnacious (sorry, couldn't resist) and especially so on “their” turf.

BTW, that you would suggest that I would go back and adjust my posts to alter history is incredibly petty and even downright offensive. You might as well call me a liar, thief and hypocrite while you are at it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Except a moderator can't read every thread as it starts. I've said this earlier - I think there's a huge difference between asking about DIR's philosophy related to (split fins/cameras/pony bottles/Air 2's/poodle BC's etc) and saying something like "I will be doing a DIR trip and will require the DIR chicken and rice so as to not upset the normal gastric flora and potentially place my jejunum out of trim. "

So which is the troll ... the poodle or the chicken? Depends entirely on your point of view. And it's highly subjective.

I think that's really where a lot of this conversation is coming from.

How many, I wonder, read the article Uncle Pug linked ... here's a quote about the consequences of trolling ...

the sad fact is that trolls do discourage people. Established posters may leave a message board because of the arguments that trolls ignite, and lurkers (people who read but do not post) may decide that they do not want to expose themselves to abuse and thus never get involved.

Another problem is that the negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions. Normally affable people can become bitter after reading an angry interchange between a troll and his victims, and this can poison previously friendly interactions between long-time users.

Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash.

Trolling comes at a cost ... namely the credibility of people who often sincerely have something useful to contribute, but are so strong in their opinions that they come across as intimidating or downright harrassing.

I recently referred a new diver to this board because he had a question about some equipment he was interested in learning more about. Here's an excerpt of what he had to say on another board regarding his experience. I'm posting it in his words because I couldn't possibly say it any better ... and it's a direct statement on how we, sometimes without intending to, influence the very divers we are trying to reach with our conversations here.

I have something to say that is slightly off the subject here but that thread brings it straight back to the forefront of my mind.

Everybody Just Needs to Chill Out!!

That is quite the argument they are having. On this board this subject has not sparked such an argument (Thank God) but I can think of 2 huge and complete unnecessary ones that are apparently continuous. Hunting and DIR/GUE. When I first joined this board I looked around and didn't come back for a month, because one of the first things I saw was the most recent argument over DIR/GUE. I am literally at a loss for words as to how appalling this behavior is. I don't think this is the face that we want to put forward for new divers (which I am).

Sound familiar to anyone?

Not trying to be judgemental ... just trying to give y'all some perspective on how what some of you may consider "humorous" terms ... or the manner in which you offer your opinion ... affects others.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

PS - Boogie, in light of our recent exchanges I feel I should state that I'm not criticizing what you said ... merely using it as a way of point out the subjective nature of what, to one person may be a humorous way of saying something while to another person the same thing looks like a troll.

 

[Boogie711]

Wow... and I was trying to be tactful! No offense taken or perceived on any count - I'll call it a poodle jacket to it's owner. I don't mean it as an insult. Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the history of the term and it's intended as an insult, I don't know. That could be an interesting history lesson...

 

[Walter]

What is a poodle jacket?

 

[cornfed]

What is a poodle jacket?

A jacket for you dog, of course!

 

[The Chairman]

Remember the old poodle skirts that the young ladies wore? They usually wore a smallish or short jacket to complete the "look". Some of the "Stab Vests" remind me (and others) of that jacket worn with the poodle skirts, hence the name. As with many names, while the user may not have intended to insult the result comes across as condescending at best and almost always mildly insulting. The same can be said about BWOD (bungeed wings of death) as well as other nicknames given to various divers and/or their gear configurations. Deprecating names tend to polarize issues and disagreements rather than clarify or difuse them. Personally, I am trying to avoid using them, but occaisionally I slip. I told a young man at a church outing who was wearing a snorkle vest incorrectly that he didn't want to be a "snorkle dork". My intentions were good, but the kids started to make fun of him even after he corrected the problem. I made sure to praise his safety consciousness several times in front of the group after that. I surely did not want him to stop wearing that piece of safety equipment! Sometimes our humor can backfire (especially mine).

 

[GDI]

no trolling - no troLLING - NO TROLLING - OH MY GOD NO TROLLING!

The opinions expressed by this individual may not be desired to be heard by the management, thank you for your time.

 

[MikeS]

MikeS, I surely agree with that concept... diving principles should stand on their own merit.

But this forum is about DIR diving and not about diving in general. This gives them a place to discuss how DIR divers feel it should be done without others passing judgement on why. It is certainly not a place to come tell DIR divers that they are Doing It Wrong. That is JUST as offensive as a DIR diver coming into the basic diving forum and telling us we are all strokes and are doing it wrong.

This is clearly a double standard. Why is there not a sticky warning in the BC Forum to warn about trolling (i.e. bungeed wings of death)? Or why isn’t there then a PADI forum where criticism of PADI is considered trolling? Or how about a computer forum where posting “computers rot your brain” is considered trolling?

More importantly why is DIR trolling so easy? The problem as I see it is that many of the moderators have shown a bias towards DIR. Flames addressing anti-DIR posts are allowed to remain. This has encouraged certain members to respond exuberantly to trolling.

I think having a DIR forum is great. But giving it special treatment is only going to make things worse. If no one responded to the trolls, they’d give up and go back under the bridge.

Oh yeah... I forgot to address the second part.

I am NOT a DIR diver, so I am not sure how my "morals" have changed or how they affect the DIR forum. I have ALWAYS believed that no agency should be bashed, and that goes both ways. Just because I don't agree with them on a host of issues does not give me the right to be pugnacious (sorry, couldn't resist) and especially so on “their” turf.

If you go back a couple of years, you can find some post where you were pretty outright anti DIR. Again if no agency should be bashed and that goes both ways, why does DIR merit special treatment?

BTW, that you would suggest that I would go back and adjust my posts to alter history is incredibly petty and even downright offensive. You might as well call me a liar, thief and hypocrite while you are at it.

Well it wasn’t as bad as calling you a liar or a thief but you are right, it was out of line, I apologize.

Mike

 

[The Chairman]

Mike,

if you go back over the years, you will see that first I asked what DIR was, and then I got pretty pissed about their behaviour (not their diving style). About the same time, I became a mod and there were some pretty "candid" discussions, but they mostly were about a particular stance (like the infamous horizontal off-gassing discussion between Roakey, Pug and myself) and not about the movement in general.

Since I have became a moderator I have consistently been against ANYONE getting bullied. When DIR posters do it, I step in and they accuse me of being anti-DIR. When others do it to DIR, I step in and they accuse me of being pro-DIR. The truth is, my problem is more with individuals within the group than the group itself. But I have the same problem with others outside of DIR as well. I hate flames and have worked diligently on this board to keep them as low as possible without stifling all debate or making it boringly tepid. The quickest way to get -my- attention is to try and be an internet bully on this board. I really don't care which side of the fence they are on, I will do something to curtail their activity. Debate something as passionately as you would like, but please don't cross the line into name calling, brow beating, insulting or trolling. You don't have to hurt others to make a point.

Since most of the flame wars seemed to revolve around DIR diving, I suggested over a year ago that they should have their own forum. The biggest problem was that DIR divers felt that they might not be welcome on other areas of the board.

So this forum was designed as an area where the intricacies of DIR diving could be discussed without all of the acrimony involved. They can discuss the proper way to deploy a lift bag or whatever without having to justify to the rest that a liftbag must be deployed. Questions like "Why should I deploy a liftbag when I am diving in a hurricane" come across as disengenuous and can be seen as trying to "pick a fight", IOW a "troll". We all know each other's hot buttons and should try and avoid those as much as possible. Life is too short and this board is too big to get sidetracked by personality conflicts.

BTW, thanks for the apology. I am not perfect by any means, but I really do try to be fair.