No Trolling?

[Walter]

Thanks for explaining. Poodle skirts were before my time (ok, so I was born, but I certainly wasn't out and about), I'm not nearly as old as I look. I don't see it, in fact, I don't understand why anyone calls vests "jackets." They don't look like jackets, poodle or otherwise, they look like (and are) vests.

"Or why isn’t there then a PADI forum where criticism of PADI is considered trolling?"

I don't see criticism of anything as trolling. Criticism involves reasons. If there are problems with PADI, DIR or anything else, those problems along with the reasoning behind them should never be considered trolling. OTOH, merely saying something is bad without explaining why you feel that way, especially if done so in an insulting manner, could be considered trolling.

 

[Uncle Pug]

As Walter said, criticism and even outright disagreement is not trolling. I certainly understand that many folks take issue with DIR and I actually welcome the debate.

I also can understand why MikeS feels that there is a double standard here... there actually is a double standard... by design. The DIR forum was set up specifically for DIR divers to discuss DIR topics as well as answer questions posed by those interested in DIR.

DIR is a subject of interest to a growing segment of the diving population and we are trying to provide a means for it to be discussed without the unnecessary attacks of those whose's only objective is disruption.

However from my perspective that does not preclude someone asking pointed questions as to why something is done a certain way and even disagreeing with the answers given.

The issue with trolling as someone has already pointed out is intent and while we are not mind readers we are SB readers. If someone's posts generally run along the lines of anti-DIR and they start a thread in this forum to mock DIR or to bait DIR diver's into a fight then it would be my call that the thread was a troll.

This in and of itself does not preclude someone who is totally anti-DIR from posting their opinions to this forum. Believe it or not MHK was once anti-DIR! You too can be assimilated. wink.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't see criticism of anything as trolling. Criticism involves reasons. If there are problems with PADI, DIR or anything else, those problems along with the reasoning behind them should never be considered trolling. OTOH, merely saying something is bad without explaining why you feel that way, especially if done so in an insulting manner, could be considered trolling.

I agree that criticism in and of itself isn't trolling. OTOH, criticizing in a manner that's meant to insult, demean, intimidate, or harrass is certainly trolling.

There's a whole lexicon of terms out there to describe various sorts of dive gear that are insulting, demeaning, or condescending. The only reason these exist (IMO) is to reinforce someone else's views of the "correct" kind of gear to use. That makes these terms not just unnecessary, but counterproductive to any form of meaningful dialogue. There may be valid reasons why someone thinks this gear is unsuitable ... but as soon as these colorful terms enter into the conversation, focus inevitably shifts from the logical to the emotional, and any validity to the POV is given short shift.

Good diving's not about the gear ... I keep hearing this ... often from the same people who are quick to point out perceived deficiencies in the gear other people are using.

For example, there's the "DIR Hall of Shame" ... it's sole purpose is to demean how other people dive ... and it's entire focus is on gear. It totally ignores all the fundamental tenets of what DIR is supposedly all about, of which the hardware is only one element. The very existence of this "DIR Hall of Shame" is, to my concern, nothing but a troll ... intended to demean people, some of whom are very good divers. It doesn't please me that the rig that I wear ... which I think is a very nice rig ... is pictured in this "Hall of Shame" (item # 11 last time I noticed). Nor does it please me to see a photo of one of my instructors ... an exceptionally good diver in my opinion and probably far more experienced than the people who created this Web site.

Stuff like this serves no purpose other than to give people reasons to want to "troll" back ... then the conversational focus shifts from substance to who can create the most verbal damage.

Perhaps, with respect to the Internet, DIR should stand for "Discussing it Right" ... I think that on both sides of the issue, conversation would be a lot more productive without the provocations that are incited by trivial things like a choice of terminology.

Unfortunately I think way too many people have forgotten that diving's supposed to be all about having fun (and not the kind one has at other people's expense) ... it never ceases to amaze me how uptight people can get over something as trivial as a recreational activity.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Uncle Pug]

The so called DIR Hall of Shame is not a part of Scuba Board nor will such behavior be allowed.

We know one another and are dive buddies... but what you may not know is my crusade on this board to eliminate the term stroke.

We are not going to be able to eliminate all offense and make sure no one gets their feelings hurt.

While both Poodle Jacket and Scum Ball can be pejorative... there is a great gulf between them and the Strokes Gallery or Hall of Shame.

 

[Spectre]

Good diving's not about the gear ... I keep hearing this ... often from the same people who are quick to point out perceived deficiencies in the gear other people are using.

The challenge tends to be to see the difference between DIR divers, and what I call IDIR divers... the DIR divers of the Internet; those that attempt to convert by force and are basically a scurge on diving; Those that will tell you what your doing is wrong, but have no ability to actually explain _why_.

 

[kalvyn]

The challenge tends to be to see the difference between DIR divers, and what I call IDIR divers... the DIR divers of the Internet; those that attempt to convert by force and are basically a scurge on diving; Those that will tell you what your doing is wrong, but have no ability to actually explain _why_.

Taking this thought even further, a true DIR diver (this is my own personal opinion here, folks!) doesn't try to convert anyone at all. They just "lead by example". They can offer their opinions and advice all day long here, or in real life. But they're clear on the fact that it's just their opinion, and not running anyone down for their particular choices.

Speaking for myself, I don't try and tell anyone they're "Doing it Wrong". I just go diving, and answer questions about the way I've chosen to dive when asked. Hopefully, people will see something they like in the way I dive, and like what I tell them about it when they ask me. I'm in an interesting position in my diving journey right now... I still feel uncomfortable offering advice, but I feel that I have a little valid advice to offer folks these days. I'm not talking DIR here, just general diving stuff. That's a whole 'nother thread, though!

Jimmie

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The so called DIR Hall of Shame is not a part of Scuba Board nor will such behavior be allowed.

We know one another and are dive buddies... but what you may not know is my crusade on this board to eliminate the term stroke.

We are not going to be able to eliminate all offense and make sure no one gets their feelings hurt.

While both Poodle Jacket and Scum Ball can be pejorative... there is a great gulf between them and the Strokes Gallery or Hall of Shame.

Actually, it's been my observation that the perjoratives on this board are less than they used to be ... and to be honest, seem to have tilted toward the majority being aimed at the DIR community, as opposed to the other way around. I think there are a few DIR folks who could tone it down a bit in terms of how they critique non-DIR methods and gear ... but for the most part even those folks are well-intentioned, if a bit strident.

I can't say I visit every thread in here (who has that kind of time) ... but it's been a long time since I've seen the term "stroke" used except when someone talks about something they did personally, or directed toward someone they know will take it as a friendly jab. I don't have any issues with that kind of usage.

FWIW - while the Hall of Shame isn't associated with this board, I didn't even know it existed till someone linked to it from this board.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cyklon_300]

zealot and beating someone over their head with a backplate isn't likely to make them adopt DIR choices...but, I can't even count the number of times someone has asked for a jacket BC recommendation, and after being pointed to Hogarthian-style rigs, came back to thank the poster(s) for exposing them to something they were unaware of.

I may be biased in my assessment, but the majority of instances where things became uncivil usually start with someone getting rude and caustic when berating DIR principles. And it's not the DIR crowd who are usually first to invoke the 'stroke' term...

Oh, and as far as the no-troll policy, you have to LOVE an edict that gets both fgray and chrpai to boycott a forum.

 

[cornfed]

Granted, no one likes a zealot and beating someone over their head with a backplate isn't likely to make them adopt DIR choices...but, I can't even count the number of times someone has asked for a jacket BC recommendation, and after being pointed to Hogarthian-style rigs, came back to thank the poster(s) for exposing them to something they were unaware of.

There is a big difference between exposing someone to something new and proselytizing. Some people are better at it then others while some seem to go out of their way to convert everyone.

Oh, and as far as the no-troll policy, you have to LOVE an edict that gets both fgray and chrpai to boycott a forum.

lol, yeah it is kinda funny.

 

[Rick Inman]

Pony, splits, BCD, Computer... that's me (for UP, I'll avoid calling myself the "S" word). But every DIR diver I've ever dived with or talked to in person has treated me with more respect than I probably deserve. I've learned more from them than anyone else. I have no plans to become DIR (you can have my pony when you pry it from my cold, dead hands), but I love the ability to steel (ah, I mean, research) the techniques I want to apply to my own diving. I'm a permanent lurker on this forum. And those who won't "drink the Koolaid" should remember that the origination of this phrase makes it one of the most tasteless comments someone could make.