No such thing as a Pony Bottle

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John,

I wonder when this requirement was added? The two Deep diver classes I had taught ten years ago for a different agency, did not require this. The PADI Deep Diver class I took around the turn of the century did not have it as a requirement.
 
I'm sorry, but if my instructor isn't smart enough to work with the equipment I want, I need to find a new instructor. I make every dive with a pony except for dives in an overhead. I do not rig my gear DIR, I rig my gear so that I can switch my main post reg with my pony reg in the event that I want to dive doubles. If my instructor can't handle that, they are a poor instructor. No, in many cases I don't know what I don't know, I still have rebreather cert and cave cert to go, but I have no desire for a cave cert (I'll go in a cave when you drag my corpse in one). I don't think I know everything, but I'm pretty sure I know what I want for equipment configuration. I'm pretty sure I know where I want to rig my line cutter, EMT shears, knife, and reel/SMB. If my instructor doesn't like me keeping my SMB in a pouch below my plate, it's now on me to replace my instructor. Even NetDoc, who has many things to teach me, needs to work with me instead of telling me that "I can't have a piece of gear". My pony has only saved my life twice, but that's 2 more times than a buddy or instructor has. I'm keeping the pony.

I hear ya... Then you have to find an instructor that suits your style. That seems to be the consensus.

I've got cards from PADI, IANTD, NSS-CDS, and GUE, all of which have varying standards. (I even have a NAUI one in there somewhere.) My wife has NAUI and SSI. So I've had my fair share of disagreements with instructors. I've won a few and lost a few.
 
The PADI Deep Diver class I took around the turn of the century did not have it as a requirement.

The requirement back then was to use unicorns or dragons not ponies. :)

DeadHorse.jpg
 
I spent a lot of time on these boards lurking through pages of peoples thoughts about Pony Bottles. I selected a 30cf Worthington bottle, with a DIN Atomic Aquatic reg, Dive Rite Travel/Sidemount for sling rigging and a 1" gauge on a 6inch hose.

Done a lot of pool work connecting, disconnecting from my BCD, exchanging regulators, boyancy etc. I was left on my first open water dive when my buddy had low air and the instructors left me alone at 80 feet while helping them. That whole stick with your buddy thing doesn't always happen.

Today the dive shop owner approached me said he saw I had a "stage bottle" an that I don't have the training for it that it's a tech level requirement and they go through hours and hours of how to use it. I said it's a pony bottle and he told me there's no such thing, people just use that phrase as an excuse and that having one causes more problems than it's worth. He doesn't want me wearing them on any training dives with his shop. He said "you don't see anyone else in my shop wearing one?!"

I'm now sitting in the PADI deep diver class where it talks about oh what's this?! Pony Bottles or Alternative Air Source. Thoughts?!

Find another shop. Stage bottles take no real extra effort in the water unless they are bigger then 40cft. You have already practiced the only skill requirement for using a stage as a alternate air and that is switching regs and OOA. As an example, I took a diver with about 30 dives in the water with a 40 cft. no buoyancy issues whats so ever and after about 15 minutes at 20ft doing regulator swapping, OOA drills and handoffs he was so comfortable I had to darn near still my tank back after our diving trip.

---------- Post added September 29th, 2014 at 03:27 PM ----------

He/she ends up in hospital or gets cremated or buried. It's taught in OW class: if you get separated from your dive buddy and can't find him - end the dive. Look for him on the surface. It's taught in OW class to monitor the air supply and surface with 500 PSI. If the student is taking divemaster class then he shouldn't be OOA, period. If we are talking about cases where the student does not follow simple things he/she learned from OW class, then I can come up with gazilion hypothetical situations when the person dies even with a pony: switched to pony and goes OOA, gets entangled, panics, get DCS, rips eardrums, gets air embolism, etc.

Pony is for catastrophic air supply failures. It's not for OOA situations, OOA situations must not ever happen, period. If the diver is not checking the air supply then I can absolutely assume he/she is not checking depth, nitrogen levels, etc. I'd doubt that he'd even remember what embolism is. Which means he has a very high chance of getting injured and killed even with a pony. In this case pony is pointless and it just an annoyance for the rescue and recovery team.

First there is more ways to OOA then a bad dive plan OOA. For example a stuck spg comes to mind. However, beyond OOA you have many reasons to have a pony. For example questionable equipment failure in team diving. A good example of this happened to me while cave diving, I was in the cave and at my first sidemount switch I noticed my spg had developed a leak and partially flooded. Now did the tank breathe? Yes. What is the source of the leak (1st Stage, Hose, spg...)?Hell if I know. From an equipment and training purpose a tank like that is considered not safe and thus should not be relied upon and from a emergency protocol is no different then a empty tank. Of course this scenario also neglects the "Holy F**K, I'm a contender for the darwin award scenario" of emergency resource depletion.

The final option is more towards recreational divers. Most recreational divers have never once considered how much air it takes to actually get two divers up from 130 ft. Using the following as an example:

Diver 1 0.7cft SAC
Diver 2 1.0 cft SAC
120 cft tank at 1100PSI (40CFT appx)
30 fpm ascent
3 minute safety stop required (You dived right up to within a few mins of your liberal dive computers limit like 99% of rec diver out there)
using half pt. atm (figure 30 sec above and 30 sec below)
No panic and OOA occurs with no additional BT penalty
Regulators cutout at 150 PSI

You will use somewhere between 28-31cft just for ascent. That leaves you between 9-12 cft to get your act together at 130 cft. which is about 1-2 minutes (assuming neither of you panic and raise your respiration rate). With a 40 cft bottle slung, even if a diver has a SAC of almost 2.0, they will make it to the top without issue and you still have 40cft to do your ascent.

Daru

P.S. take about 3-4 cft off the used amount for safety stops if you're of the F**K it im going to the top DCS be darned, camp.
 
John,
I wonder when this requirement was added? The two Deep diver classes I had taught ten years ago for a different agency, did not require this. The PADI Deep Diver class I took around the turn of the century did not have it as a requirement.
I have no idea when the use of a pony bottle was added to the course--it has been there since the first time I taught it. As I said, it is not required that the student use a pony bottle to complete the skill for the required alternate air source part of the course. Using a pony is suggested as an option in the student materials for the course, and it is included as an option in the standards for the course. I quoted two different places where it is mentioned in the standards in this thread.

If someone came to me and said they were interested in using a pony bottle and wanted to take a course in which its safe use could be taught as a part of the course, this is the first one I would think of.
 
Pony bottles are not mentioned in the 1963 “The Complete Illustrated Guide to Snorkel and Deep Diving” by Owen Lee, who dived with Cousteau and then worked for the Navy for many years in San Diego, where I met him in 1968. His book is charming to read, but dated in almost every aspect. We have come a long way.

The PADI Encyclopedia of Recreational Diving (2nd Edition, dates from 1988-1996), devotes half of page 3-70 to Pony Bottles. It describes the pony as “especially popular among divers who spend considerable time in deeper water.”

The Scuba Equipment Care and Maintenance book (1908-2001), which was the nominal text for the PADI Equipment Specialty, mentions pony tanks as common among deep/wreck divers, but not popular otherwise because of cost (a tank and a regulator and the additional maintenance).

The first mention of a pony in the PADI Training Bulletin (started in 1994) is in 1994: “In all cases of buddy-assisted ascents in out-of-air situations, alternative air source use (including the pony bottle, extra second stage octopus, and alternate inflator/regulators) have always been preferred over buddy breathing.”

(The next mention is not until 2009, in an article about TEC 40.)

The NOAA Diving Manual, 4th Edition (2001), p5-11 describes the pony as a “bailout cylinder” that is useful as an emergency air supply.

The oldest Deep Instructor Manual I can find on my shelf is from 2005; a pony is mentioned as one of the possible kinds of alternate air sources, one of which is required for the class.

In the Self-Reliant Diver course – a recreational, not technical course – a pony or other independent gas source is required.

In all of the material above, the pony is described as attached to one’s main cylinder(s), hence its name. the concept of slinging the pony, as one would a stage bottle, has been around as an alternative mounting mechanism for at least 10 years, and likely longer. I assume the practice was borrowed from the technical community.

What is my point?

Pony bottles are part of the recreational dive equipment repertoire and have been for at least two decades. They are now mandated in at least one PADI recreational course and optional in others. There is no reason for a PADI instructor to be unaware of their ruse and value. How they are carried is irrelevant, although someone seriously anal might want to say that it is only a “pony” if it is attached to your main cylinder(s); otherwise it is an alternate air source or bail-out that is independent and therefore useful in emergencies. It is never part of the gas plan for the dive, but the dive plan determines how big it must be. It has to carry bottom gas, otherwise its use in emergencies is restricted. What gas it carries thus also depends on the dive.
 
If age matters, here is a back-mounted bailout with an independent regulator on a delta-pack set of triple-72s I used in 1968 in Monterey. We were doing some jumps to 200'. I don’t recall seeing a bailout on a Scuba rig before, but I may have. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
 

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I'm looking in to this subject, for safety of my self and my buddy, is there a sort of rule or guide regarding, the size of the pony bottle if you stay in the recreational limits 42m and inside your NDL, for example, 35m with 3min safety stop require approximate a 19cf bottle if you are at 40m with a safety stop at 16m for 2min and another at 5m for 3 min you need a 30cf bottle aprox, in case of emergency, I know more capacity obviusly is better but as well more wait in drag and you want to keep it in proportion.
 
I have a 19cf and a 40cf. Buoyancy and drag- I hardly notice a difference. If you are going to buy just one, I'd go with a 40cf. It'll get you up from 130 ft with a safety stop and some extra air just in case. If your really deep and have multiple problems a 19cf might not be enough.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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