No such thing as a Pony Bottle

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I remember when mechanical BC inflators (low pressure inflators that were fed from the regulator) first came out. They were thought to be dangerous and were only suitable for advanced divers who would not be overly task loaded with the buttons and the added risk of an uncontrolled ascent due to gear failure or inappropriate use. It was thought to be safer to orally inflate the BC.

When I first started diving with BSAC, nobody had an octopus, in an emergency we had to share air …. eventually BSAC caught up

Not that long ago, the only divers (it seemed) who commonly used SMB's were local Florida divers who were doing drift dives. I did two trips to Cozumel and never saw anyone with one ever. They too were thought to be an added complexity that adds task loading and also had potential pitfalls if used incorrectly. However now, these devices seem to have been adopted as almost standard equipment in many locations.

But how many people really know how to use them properly without making a birds nest, or accidentally ascending with the bag?


I'm honestly surprised that the evolution toward widespread acceptance of a redundant system has not occurred.

It will happen only when retailers discover this is a way to make more money selling another tank and a regulator and PADI will bring out a Pony course.

Where I currently live, there is not much difference between the cost of a an S40 and an AL80
 
Would you also ban a student from carrying a DSMB on a dive because they may or may not be versed in deploying it? Would you ban student from carrying a light on a night dive because it might fail?
I actually require this on all OW dives. OW students must be able to deploy it on the surface. All other students (AOW and on) must deploy it from depth.

Nothing the OP has said was causing an instructor to "change their standards", it was about carrying a recognized and RECOMMENDED piece of safety equipment which the instructor was too ignorant and stubborn to allow without acting like a child.
Ignorant? Yes. Stubborn? Not so sure. No need to overstate the issue. When I do my Trim, Buoyancy and Propulsion workshop, I ask that they leave all such devices in the car for all pool sessions. It's not that I don't feel that ponies don't affect trim, etc, but I have a specific methodology in the pool that this would interfere with. This applies to a lot of things that can get in the way and complicate the learning process. That all changes in OW where I expect to see a whistle, light, cutting device, spool and SMB. If they didn't bring one, I have lots of spares in the van.

My main problem with this thread is the lynch mob mentality: not carrying a pony. I have a problem with having judgement, including a sentence, being passed on any instructor with only half the story being presented. From some of his comments, the OP has issues with this "He's an idiot" mentality. In fact, I bet he's embarrassed by that kind of reaction from some of you. I've yet to meet the perfect instructor. Oh sure, there are a few who act that like they are, but no one is perfect. No, not even me! :D Every instructor has holes in their understanding. Some are subtle or benign while others are glaring and can even be dangerous. All can be addressed with a bit of patient education.
 
I have been diving a lot too all around the world and yet to see a whale shark!

Plenty of people outside of USA use ponies, in fact there are several of us use them all the time here in UAE. I have also used one when diving outside of UAE on dive trips when they are available

I guess, my case is different from yours. I dive ALWAYS with two buddies that I have always known, one is my wife :kiss2:. And YES, I have seen wale sharks :kiss2:. I would be a solo diver or a single diver, having to dive with insta-buddies, I would have a pony. In fact for most deco dives, I take a deco 50 Eanx with me. Read my wessage I DID NOT SAY I was against pony bottles :no:
 
Ignorant? Yes. Stubborn? Not so sure. No need to overstate the issue.

I generally try to stay out of the name calling but I do feel it is important to accurately characterize things.

A dive professional today who claims there is not such thing as a pony seems to be a bit more than simply ignorant. A dive professional who says his instructors do not know how to use a pony is suspect. A dive professional who wants to place a diver in deep, cold water in a medium thickness wet suit is questionable.

I don't believe "ignorant" is the right category for his behavior.

How about deceptive, self-serving, untrustworthy, dangerous....

Maybe "idiot" is a bit strong. Maybe it is not that bad.

What I am really unsure of is why other dive professionals might be compelled to defend such behavior.
 
What I am really unsure of is why other dive professionals might be compelled to defend such behavior.
Again, until I hear from BOTH sides, I am reticent to hold onto such a negative opinion, much less post it publicly. You're free to jump to conclusions as you see fit. I bet you could medal in it at the next Online Olympics! :D :D :D I'm going to try my best in the "Stir the Pot" and "Power Troll" competitions. Wish me luck!
 
My main problem with this thread is the lynch mob mentality: not carrying a pony. I have a problem with having judgement, including a sentence, being passed on any instructor with only half the story being presented. From some of his comments, the OP has issues with this "He's an idiot" mentality. In fact, I bet he's embarrassed by that kind of reaction from some of you.
Once again, a thoughtful comment, just as you offered earlier, in Posts 12 and 70.

The thread does raise some interesting issues, probably the least important of which is whether or not a diver carries a pony bottle. And, the exhuberence with which we bandy about the term, 'idiot' may well be influenced by the lateness of the evening when we respond and the quantity of adult beverages already consumed.

I previously mentioned my reluctance to pile on, having only heard one side of the exchange, as well as my somewhat negative impression of the shop owner IF the OP's account was faithful to the actual exchange and therefore accurate. But, what does concern me is - admittedly, from MY point of view - what was being disseminated, and how it was being presented, by an instructor (the shop owner) regarding the appropriateness of certain equipment, in various environments.

Had this person said, 'I have concerns with your use of a pony bottle in this Deep Diver specialty course for three reasons: 1) it may add to task loading that will necessarily be present in an environment of very cold water, and depth - which may contribute to narcosis; b) the possibility that you will (wrongly) rely on your pony bottle as something other than purely an emergency / redundant air supply, and fail to appropriately manage your gas as a result; and c) I do not know the extent of your training and experience in/with the use of a pony bottle, and I do not want to increase the risks - to you, the instructor and the other member of the class - associated with this dive, by having you carry a piece of equipment with which you are not intimately familiar.', I would have been less concerned. While I would personally encourage a diver to become facile with the use of a pony bottle, and would recommend (but certainly not require) that any diver going to 130ft consider carrying one, if a shop owner, or an instructor used the approach outlined above, I would fully agree with Pete - each instructor should have the license to teach their course in a manner that they consider both safe and appropriate.

What I read in the OP's description of the shop owner, in her subsequent comments, and even in the excerpt of the shop owner's follow-up email, was a rather confrontational attitude that really undermines effective teaching, and seems to border on dissemination of misinformation. I have been a teacher for most of my adult life - in a university health science center on a professional basis, and later as a scuba instructor. I have negative views of teachers who, when their opinions are challenged, revert to a 'my way or the highway' response. I used to tell students and residents that, when someone begins their justification for a particular approach to a patient with, 'Well, in my clinical experience . . .', whatever follows should be taken with a grain of salt. If there are data to support a position, present the data. If a decision must be made but data to guide the decision are simply not available, or are conflicting, then state that. As a scuba instructor, I tell students what I know to be true, what I think to be true, and what I prefer to do because I don't have data available to support one approach or another.

I personally believe that there is a difference between what is generally referred to as a pony bottle, and what is referred to as a stage bottle. The difference is based on intended use, and has little to do with size, or how it is mounted. I could be wrong, and would welcome a thoughtful, factual explanation of why my view is incorrect. I am (very) bothered by an arbitrary statement that there is no such thing as a pony bottle. I personally am frustrated by, and disagree with, distinctions that seem to be made between gear supposedly suitable for / restricted to technical vs recreational diving - I don't see a pony bottle, a lift bag / DSMB, a BP/W BCD, as exclusively 'tech' gear. I could be wrong, and would welcome a thoughtful, factual explanation of why my view is incorrect.

The OP's description of her encounter(s) therefore hit several of my individual 'hot buttons'. Based on an admittedly one-sided presentation of the exchange between the shop owner and the OP, I responded with what she asked for - my 'thoughts'. The context and content of the actual exchange may well have been very different from what was presented here (I have no reason to believe it was, but am very open to that possibility). But, what was described was behavior of a shop owner that I view in very negative terms. If the OP was a relative, my daughter or my sister-in-law , for example, and she called me, described the encounter exactly as the OP described her experience, and then asked, 'What should I do, I have already signed up for the program?', I would suggest she look for another, more positive and engaging, environment. If a student asks me WHY I do - or don't do - something a certain way, I will tell them. If I see clear advantages and disadvantages, I will share those. If I see different approaches as representing 'right' and wrong', I will explain why I see things that way. And, if I do something primarily out of habit, I will tell them that as well.

So, I don't see the issue as being as much about the use of a pony bottle in a Deep Diver class, as about whether an environment is likely to be a good leaning environment or not. But, as I said before, I could be wrong, and would welcome a thoughtful, factual explanation of why my view is incorrect.
 
I guess, my case is different from yours. I dive ALWAYS with two buddies that I have always known, one is my wife :kiss2:. And YES, I have seen wale sharks :kiss2:. I would be a solo diver or a single diver, having to dive with insta-buddies, I would have a pony. In fact for most deco dives, I take a deco 50 Eanx with me. Read my wessage I DID NOT SAY I was against pony bottles :no:


I think you missed my point, which is no matter how many dives you have made or places you have travelled, there are things that are relatively common that we may never come across just as that elusive whale shark for me.

Who knows that when you went out on a boat the next boat may have had a couple of divers carrying pony bottles, just like the dive I skipped in Lembeh a few months ago, my group spotted a 3M whale shark.

I did not comment about your view on pony bottles, but happy to hear that you use EAN50 on deco dives :D
 
While I don't like throwing equipment at a training issue, I understand why some do. I also understand why some instructors won't allow it. I was talked into buying Twin Jets when I started diving again. My old Jets were way too small and they seemed to be a good alternative. I even developed adequate anti-silt techniques with them. However, when I took my cavern class I was told point blank that splits were simply not allowed. No, he was not interested in seeing my technique. No was the final answer and so I bought a set of Jets that would fit me. I don't think I've used the splits since.

Asking an instructor to change their standards for a class is problematic on many levels. If I am teaching buddy skills, the last thing I want on any OW diver is redundant air. This is especially true if I am presenting a series of task loading exercises and I think the pony adds more than they can handle. Maybe standards was a poor excuse, but I can see a number of problems arising from it's use in class.

I agree...

Since when is an instructor not allowed to tell students what to take on a dive during a class? My first thought was maybe the instructor didn't want all the other students confused/distracted from learning and perhaps thinking that they could just get a pony instead of learning new skills. My second thought was maybe the instructor has seen the guy in the water and didn't want him thrashing around and constantly fiddling with it and not paying attention. Divers are often completely distracted by their new toys. This might be one of those times where trying to avoid the harsh truth creates more problems. I bet the group would have a different reaction if the instructor had said, sorry you aren't ready for that, or you need more work on X before you're ready for the additional task loading. Who hasn't been around a dive shop long enough to understand this?

I know some/many of the pro pony posters have taken tech and cave classes. Try telling your cave or tech instructor you want to do something different from what s/he has planned. The first thing a tech instructor normally does is rip your gear configuration and make you redo things. You think they're gonna go for a pony bottle if it's not part of the training?! Pony's aren't tech, but the closest thing in tech would be stage diving. That's a separate class and you wouldn't be allowed to use a stage in training unless you've passed stage class. I would love to see the instructor's reaction when the student says that he removed his second so he's not going to do air sharing he's going to hand-off his pony instead.

Anyway, the obvious take away is that everyone LOVES pony bottles...
 
I agree...

Since when is an instructor not allowed to tell students what to take on a dive during a class? My first thought was maybe the instructor didn't want all the other students confused/distracted from learning and perhaps thinking that they could just get a pony instead of learning new skills. My second thought was maybe the instructor has seen the guy in the water and didn't want him thrashing around and constantly fiddling with it and not paying attention. Divers are often completely distracted by their new toys. This might be one of those times where trying to avoid the harsh truth creates more problems. I bet the group would have a different reaction if the instructor had said, sorry you aren't ready for that, or you need more work on X before you're ready for the additional task loading. Who hasn't been around a dive shop long enough to understand this?

I know some/many of the pro pony posters have taken tech and cave classes. Try telling your cave or tech instructor you want to do something different from what s/he has planned. The first thing a tech instructor normally does is rip your gear configuration and make you redo things. You think they're gonna go for a pony bottle if it's not part of the training?! Pony's aren't tech, but the closest thing in tech would be stage diving. That's a separate class and you wouldn't be allowed to use a stage in training unless you've passed stage class. I would love to see the instructor's reaction when the student says that he removed his second so he's not going to do air sharing he's going to hand-off his pony instead.

Anyway, the obvious take away is that everyone LOVES pony bottles...

I'm sorry, but if my instructor isn't smart enough to work with the equipment I want, I need to find a new instructor. I make every dive with a pony except for dives in an overhead. I do not rig my gear DIR, I rig my gear so that I can switch my main post reg with my pony reg in the event that I want to dive doubles. If my instructor can't handle that, they are a poor instructor. No, in many cases I don't know what I don't know, I still have rebreather cert and cave cert to go, but I have no desire for a cave cert (I'll go in a cave when you drag my corpse in one). I don't think I know everything, but I'm pretty sure I know what I want for equipment configuration. I'm pretty sure I know where I want to rig my line cutter, EMT shears, knife, and reel/SMB. If my instructor doesn't like me keeping my SMB in a pouch below my plate, it's now on me to replace my instructor. Even NetDoc, who has many things to teach me, needs to work with me instead of telling me that "I can't have a piece of gear". My pony has only saved my life twice, but that's 2 more times than a buddy or instructor has. I'm keeping the pony.
 
I agree...

Since when is an instructor not allowed to tell students what to take on a dive during a class? My first thought was maybe the instructor didn't want all the other students confused/distracted from learning and perhaps thinking that they could just get a pony instead of learning new skills.

Why is it that people in this thread cannot seem to grasp that this was not a student wanting to take a pony bottle along on an unrelated class. This was a deep diver class in which using a pony is an optional (for the student) part of the curriculum. If the student wants to use it and doesn't know how, it is the instructor's job to teach it. Since it is specifically mentioned in both the standards and the student learning materials, then if the other students are confused by it, the instructor is REQUIRED to give them appropriate instruction.

The students are paying the instructor to teach them the content of an established class. I can't believe people think it is OK for an instructor to refuse to teach that content because it will confuse the other students who are also paying to learn that content. It is the instructor's job to clear up that confusion. That's what they are paying for when they take the class.
 
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