No Diving on Meds!

[*Floater*]

So pairing her off with the photog and giving them the instruction that they need to thumb the dive would not have been a more rational decision than grabbing the new divers yoke and dragging her to the surface with him? Even from 25 ft, and with an ascent rate of 18 ft/min, which it sounds like he probably exceeded, taking Shan's post at face value, what if he spooked her enough that she held her breath? What if she had a reverse block in her ear on the way up? A lot can go wrong in those last 25 ft. Plus we don't know how many dives she did that day, or how deep she had been on this dive...

What ever happened to the whole thing about the last 30 ft of ascent being the most dangerous? I think it is pretty clear this was a bad call.

Without more information it's hard to say. But here are somethings to consider:

1) Would the DM have trusted his newbie buddy with the photog that had already lost a previous buddy in an emergency? (What would we be saying now if he had left her with the photog and something had then happened to her?)

2) Was the injured diver wearing lights that would have made her easy to spot on the surface? How was the current? Maybe the DM felt he had to follow her up in order not to loose her, and that there was no time to buddy Shan up with the photog.

3) How much diving had they done that day? What was the dive profile? If the whole 40min had been spent above ~25ft or at least the last part of it (thereby acting almost as a regular safety stop), then ascending the last 25ft would be less risky than if they had just come up from a deeper portion of the dive.

But I do agree that 18ft/min was probably exceeded by the sound of the story (i.e. I doubt Shan exhaled continuously for 1.5min), and 9ft/min would be a better ascent rate anyway during the last 30ft. But it's not a cut and dry case imo given the information we know so far and I could cerainly fill in the holes in a way to justify the DM's actions.

 

[my1ocean]

Im with why was this person still on pain meds 2 weeks after? I was off the pills 2days after, in fact I had less pain AFTER the surgery than Before. Taht aside I belive its taught in your BOW class that you should never dive on meds.

Don't want to ruffle feathers, but this requires a bit of speculation. She could've had complications... I dunno, seems like a long time to be on pain meds, but who knows why.


What if the DM shook Shangrls yoke and signalled up instead of just pulling her up? Hindsight being 20/20 and all.

 

[gangrel441]

My assessment of the situation is based on the information given. As I mentioned earlier, even at 9 ft/min, what happens if grabbing her and taking her up (remember her experience level) had freaked her out (easy to do on a night dive), caused panic, and she reverted to instinct and held her breath? I would say one victim on the surface is quite enough to keep rescuers busy.

 

[SadiesMom]

I'm seeing a whole lot of speculation here about the wisdom tooth extraction (i.e. "simple tooth extraction" "long time to be on pain med" "I was off pain meds TWO days after").

I had 4 wisdom teeth extracted several years ago and it was anything BUT simple - it was a surgical extraction of impacted wisdom teeth. And I developed the VERY painful complication of dry socket in all 4 of the sockets. This is where the clots in the sockets that protect the nerves where the teeth were are knocked loose during healing and leave the nerves unprotected and exposed to air, food and water until the skin in the socket heals over the exposed nerve. There is NO information in the original post to determine that this was a "simple tooth extraction" or whether it was a complicated one...or whether the diver had developed the complication of dry socket, which those of us who've developed it can tell you...is ENORMOUSLY painful and does require narcotic painkillers for quite some time. So let's try not to make assumptions based on information that's not there. (And for the record, NO, I did not dive during my recovery!)

What IS there is that this *injured diver* CLEARLY made a poor decision in 1) diving while taking narcotic painkillers; 2) diving so soon after wisdom tooth extraction, whether she had dry socket or not - clearly 2 weeks is not long enough for wisdom tooth sockets to properly heal completely. As someone who was an experienced diver and worked in a shop on the island, she should've known better.

As to whether the DM screwed up or not, I don't see any information on how deep the dive was (only that they ascended from 25 feet - if that was the depth, I'm not all that concerned about the missed safety stop), or the ascent rate. Faced with a diver who cannot breathe and a new diver on her second night dive, with a 4th diver not immediately nearby and not paying attention, I'm not sure that I would've stopped to get the 4th buddy's attention, tell him that I was leaving the new diver with him while I took a diver who couldn't breathe to the surface and to stay there - that would just take too much time to make myself understood. The most expedient thing would've been to get *everyone* to the surface (including the photographer/4th diver - however, I would've made sure I didn't risk *anyone* by exceeding a safe ascent rate. From 25 feet, that would be fast enough to get the diver up - even coughing hard. I've had the occasion to have a coughing/choking fit underwater and while it's not comfortable, it can be done through one's reg safely while making a safe ascent.

My $0.02 (and of course, Monday morning quarterbacking is easy...)

 

[gangrel441]

As to whether the DM screwed up or not, I don't see any information on how deep the dive was (only that they ascended from 25 feet - if that was the depth, I'm not all that concerned about the missed safety stop), or the ascent rate. Faced with a diver who cannot breathe and a new diver on her second night dive, with a 4th diver not immediately nearby and not paying attention, I'm not sure that I would've stopped to get the 4th buddy's attention, tell him that I was leaving the new diver with him while I took a diver who couldn't breathe to the surface and to stay there - that would just take too much time to make myself understood. The most expedient thing would've been to get *everyone* to the surface (including the photographer/4th diver - however, I would've made sure I didn't risk *anyone* by exceeding a safe ascent rate. From 25 feet, that would be fast enough to get the diver up - even coughing hard. I've had the occasion to have a coughing/choking fit underwater and while it's not comfortable, it can be done through one's reg safely while making a safe ascent.

My $0.02 (and of course, Monday morning quarterbacking is easy...)

No argument here...except...would you have grabbed the new diver and made the ascent, or would you have tried getting the to the new diver (which one would have to do anyways), signaling an ascent, and beginning the ascent with physical contact? I would say that to take the ascent out of the hands of the new diver may well be putting the new diver at unnecessary risk.

I agree that there is plenty of story to be filled in between the gaps in the story we are working with here, but I would say one would have to add some real specific and unusual details to this story before grabbling the new diver and taking her for a ride would be the most prudent course of action.

 

[TSandM]

Just want to make the point that "pain medication" does not necessarily imply narcotics. Ibuprofen and related NSAIDs are powerful and effective pain medications which do not cloud sensorium, and I'll bet there are a lot of older divers dealing with their chronic arthritic pain (aggravated by hauling heavy scuba gear) by taking such meds.

 

[DandyDon]

Lots and lots of speculation on what happened to the diver who couldn't breathe off of her reg? Was it the dental thing, was it the unknown meds, was it a rental reg gone wet, was it asthma (I'm expanding here), was it panic, etc. We'll never know, as that diver is not here to question.

It must have been a little bothersome to Shangrl to have been jerked up by the DM and it's good to read that she remembered to exhale on the way up. Good luck on your continued dive experiences.

 

[my1ocean]

Food for thought.
If my buddy gets my attention and signals up, I don't give a flip why or ask questions, especially if they start up right away. I would pay attention to their ascent rate and offer any assistance possible. I think most people would do the same. This being said, a DM doesn't have to drag a person to the surface. I'm sure Shangrl would have followed by getting her attention and signalling.

 

[SadiesMom]

Just want to make the point that "pain medication" does not necessarily imply narcotics. Ibuprofen and related NSAIDs are powerful and effective pain medications which do not cloud sensorium (snip)

Granted. The information given was "some sort of pain killer" which I interpreted as a narcotic pain med. But you're absolutely right that that is indeed an assumption (based on my own experience with complications associated with my own wisdom tooth extraction - the development of 4 dry sockets, which required narcotic pain meds for several weeks afterwards).

Although I am most assuredly not a dentist or oral surgeon, (nor do I play one here ) my own experience with wisdom tooth extraction and the normal pain associated with it versus that associated with the most likely complication (i.e., dry socket) led me to assume that it was likely that the injured diver was using a *narcotic* pain killer versus an NSAID (dry socket being *extremely* painful, since it involves the exposure of a bare nerve to air, water, food - whatever). However, you are absolutely correct that it's possible that the med involved was non-narcotic.

 

[Greg D.]

I had 4 wisdom teeth extracted several years ago and it was anything BUT simple - it was a surgical extraction of impacted wisdom teeth. And I developed the VERY painful complication of dry socket in all 4 of the sockets. This is where the clots in the sockets that protect the nerves where the teeth were are knocked loose during healing and leave the nerves unprotected and exposed to air, food and water until the skin in the socket heals over the exposed nerve. There is NO information in the original post to determine that this was a "simple tooth extraction" or whether it was a complicated one...or whether the diver had developed the complication of dry socket, which those of us who've developed it can tell you...is ENORMOUSLY painful and does require narcotic painkillers for quite some time. So let's try not to make assumptions based on information that's not there. (And for the record, NO, I did not dive during my recovery!)

My question to you is, when you had your comlications, with all the pain you are in would you have even thought about going diving? Before I had my teeth pulled I didnt want to do anything even AFTER I had taken the narcotics they prescribed me cause I was still in pain. I went diving 2 weeks after having my teeth done no probs whatsoever