No Diving on Meds!

[SadiesMom]

No argument here...except...would you have grabbed the new diver and made the ascent, or would you have tried getting the to the new diver (which one would have to do anyways), signaling an ascent, and beginning the ascent with physical contact? I would say that to take the ascent out of the hands of the new diver may well be putting the new diver at unnecessary risk.

I might have grabbed the new diver initially to assure that she understood the thumbs up signal and started up immediately with no dallying...but I don't believe I would've "yanked" her all the way to the surface -- as you say, beginning the ascent with physical contact, but not taking the entire ascent out of her control.

But again...this is Monday morning quarterbacking...while contructive in terms of thinking through "What would *I* do as a DM under these circumstances?," it's still helpful to remember that we are all thinking about this while not actually *in* the undoubtably stressful situation of a night dive with a new diver with almost no night dive experience, a diver who's having trouble breathing and another person who's off taking pictures and not paying attention. Let's use this to think through what we'd do (and take what we'd do and change what we wouldn't), but not to beat the DM about the head and shoulders - especially since s/he isn't here to say what s/he was thinking....

 

[SadiesMom]

I had 4 wisdom teeth extracted several years ago and it was anything BUT simple - it was a surgical extraction of impacted wisdom teeth. And I developed the VERY painful complication of dry socket in all 4 of the sockets. This is where the clots in the sockets that protect the nerves where the teeth were are knocked loose during healing and leave the nerves unprotected and exposed to air, food and water until the skin in the socket heals over the exposed nerve. There is NO information in the original post to determine that this was a "simple tooth extraction" or whether it was a complicated one...or whether the diver had developed the complication of dry socket, which those of us who've developed it can tell you...is ENORMOUSLY painful and does require narcotic painkillers for quite some time. So let's try not to make assumptions based on information that's not there. (And for the record, NO, I did not dive during my recovery!)

My question to you is, when you had your comlications, with all the pain you are in would you have even thought about going diving? Before I had my teeth pulled I didnt want to do anything even AFTER I had taken the narcotics they prescribed me cause I was still in pain. I went diving 2 weeks after having my teeth done no probs whatsoever

The short answer is no. I don't dive while under the influence of prescription pain meds. I had some back problems while on a dive vacation last May and had to take prescription pain meds, but I didn't take them until the end of the dive day, when I knew there was plenty of time for them to wear off before the next morning's dive (and this was cleared by my doctor before I went).

I didn't even consider diving after my wisdom tooth extraction until my oral surgeon had told me that I was sufficiently healed. I didn't consider the pain to be a judge of that, because I still could've developed an air bubble in one of the sockets that could've expanded on ascent and either caused hemorrhage with disruption of a new clot or severe pain.

 

[RonFrank]

Was it the DM?

If the dive was at max depth 25fsw, then yanking you up is a non issue. Keep in mind that instructors perform ESA's often a dozen times or more from such depths, and don't suffer. It's still not a great idea, but the bottom line is that 25fsw is not even 1 atmosphere of pressure, and quick ascents from such depths is not all that dangerous.

IMO a more important question is who was your buddy? If it was the DM, then he did what needed to be done. He kept you with him, and he did what was necessary for the other diver.

IMO this DM may have done everything right. He did not leave his buddy, and he got the distressed diver to the surface alive, and well.

Seems like everyone here LOVES to criticise others, but what would YOU have done? Certainly thumbing the dive is an answer, but did he?

In any event, all is well.

Shangrl, was the photographer diving solo? At 25 feet that would not be shocking, but IMO having a buddy is best.

 

[*Floater*]

Was it the DM?

(...)

IMO a more important question is who was your buddy? If it was the DM, then he did what needed to be done. He kept you with him, and he did what was necessary for the other diver.

Shangrl answered this before:

I think what is important to remember is this. The DM was my dive buddy. The photog and the injured diver were buddies. When this was going on, the injured diver swam over to the DM and left her buddy at the wall so I saw the DM and her ascending after a struggle. There was no way that the DM was going to leave me, a new diver, on a night dive under the water by myself. I think it was a Catch 22 type of situation and I think he made the correct decision. the otehr diver was probably about 20 feet away taking pictures and not aware of what was happening until later.

 

[Ayisha]

If the dive was at max depth 25fsw, then yanking you up is a non issue. Keep in mind that instructors perform ESA's often a dozen times or more from such depths, and don't suffer. It's still not a great idea, but the bottom line is that 25fsw is not even 1 atmosphere of pressure, and quick ascents from such depths is not all that dangerous.

Huh? 25 fsw is about 2 ata, not less than 1. This is the greatest pressure differential and presents the MOST risk to divers. Yanking someone up from 130 fsw to 105 fsw would be much less of an issue.

When instructors do CESA's, they are exhaling themselves, ensuring a slow, controlled ascent, and usually have their hand on the "victim's" reg feeling and watching for bubbles/breathing. How could this DM guarantee that Shangrl was exhaling continuously? Good for her to have the presence of mind...

 

[gangrel441]

Or, just to be a bit more clear....Being dragged from 25 ft to the surface is being dragged from a little less than 2 ata to 1 ata, or a change in pressure of nearly 50%. Being dragged from 130 fsw to 90 fsw is a change from 5 ata to 4 ata, or a total change in pressure of 20%. While it is not likely that one would get bent from a dive where max depth was 25, I don't recall Shan saying her max was 25, only that that was how deep she was when the DM dragged her up.

But even if we aren't worried about Shan getting bent, that still does nothing to prevent her from panicking, holding her breath, and getting a lung overexpansion. And 25 ft is quite deep enough for that to happen. Doing a CESA with an already panicked diver or a non-responsive diver is one thing. Doing it with an inexperienced, but otherwise healthy diver is quite another.

 

[japan-diver]

Was it the DM?

If the dive was at max depth 25fsw, then yanking you up is a non issue. Keep in mind that instructors perform ESA's often a dozen times or more from such depths, and don't suffer. It's still not a great idea, but the bottom line is that 25fsw is not even 1 atmosphere of pressure, and quick ascents from such depths is not all that dangerous.

.

Yanking a responsive, non-panicing diver up from 25ft or any depth is not an option ever. This was definately a mistake on the DM's part. A rapid ascent from 25ft is very dangerous regardless of previous dives or how deep the dive was beforehand. From the description of the event a few quick decisions had to be made there are a few options
1) Follow injured diver to surface, establish buoyancy- immediately go back and gather up remaining divers surface. (Obvious drawbacks is you are leaving two divers down not really buddied up)
2) Get attention of new diver ascend together watching injured diver from below. Signal third diver to ascend with light signals.

There is never a reason to yank a diver up. Yes this was a new diver- but certified to dive and having no problems. Even at night I would have to assume that a diver could ascend wthout my assistance.

 

[Wildcard]

My comments are on the basis of avoiding the risk of having 3 victims on the surface, rather than one.

I am not a DM, but am currently working towards it. You, however, are clearly implying that I am wrong, and have no idea what I am talking about. There is at least one other instructor in this thread that disagrees.



So tell me, Wildcard...are you implying that just because one isn't a divemaster, that one has no way to know if a DM has made a bad decision? Are you saying that DMs are infallable, and that anyone below DM could not possibly comprehend such things?

Sometimes, when your new at something and think you know it all, maybe just maybe the best course of action is to watch and listen and not attack others when you don't know the whole story, haven't been there your self and don't have the real life background to make constructive comments. It's easy to be a monday morning Qback and even easer to pick apart something if you have only one side of the story. Bad stuff happens underwater in a hurry, DMs and Instructors will do there best to keep everyone safe and sometimes that means breaking the rules a little....I would have to ask a lot of questions about what "yanked" to the surface ment before making any calls on this one. If the DM had left the new night diver behind and alone who knows what would have happened? The DM got everyone that needed to be, up and safely. May not read that way in the book but it clearly worked. Could it possably be that the DM knew exactly what he/she was doing and people are just overreacting? As PADI teaches, your various C cards are nothing more than a ticket to learn more. That might be a good idea before you again attack other peoples judgment calls.

 

[Doc Harry]

Please give us the name of the DM and the dive operation.

I'd like to avoid both of them!

Sorry! Don't mean to hijack the thread.

 

[Blox]

Shangrl, Your Ursula Andress avatar is so cool! Oh, sorry-went off topic

it is, although it hardly beats "the real thing".
Sorry, went off topic too