No air integration in high-end and tech DCs . Why ?

[DevonDiver]

.... all to get me something that I already know (SAC)....

I think this is something that the rec divers are failing to appreciate... so: for example, as a technical diver I know:

13 lpm - my baseline SAC

+1 lpm - supervising students/novice tech divers
+1 lpm - running guideline
+1 lpm - slight workload (survey/video/first dive on a new site etc)
+1 lpm - drifting deco

-1 lpm - diving with an equal peer and/or mentor
-1 lpm - very low demand dive (macro photography or day-dream rec dive..)

+2 lpm - particularly 'demanding' student
+2 lpm - gentle/moderate current on dive/deco
+2 lpm - negotiating hard restrictions

+3 lpm - moderate/strong current on dive/deco
+3 lpm - negotiating complex/extreme restrictions
+3 lpm - error-prone or significantly under-performing student

Just a product of analysis over years of diving. What could an AI possibly contribute further?

I don't need a GPS to get around my home-town.... and I don't need an AI to tell me my air consumption. That knowledge is part and parcel of being a technical diver...

 

[lv2dive]

I don't think anyone thinks this kind of blue sky talk is endangering anything other than a few bytes of the interwebs; most of just think it's silly and can't understand why it seems like you don't want to hear what we are saying.

 

[fnog]

The issue with temperature is that some people breathe more gas when they are cold. This not some kind of temperature -related physics law that needs to be accounted for, via a dive computer algorithm.

I understood eelnoraa question as :
-What if a change of temperature of some unused tank (for example thermocline) causes a pressure drop in the tank ? While it is not breathed on this tank could be confused for the new active gas tank by the gas switch algo.

And that is what I answered.

If it was in fact relating to the rate or amplitude of breathing of someone who who just flooded his suit, then I do not see how this puts the criteria for gas switch detection into trouble.

Regarding price of doohickeys, the best suggestion by the majority of posters is: do not buy them, even if they are a slightly modified version of the SPG with little extra cost, you do not need them so don't buy them. And that is fair.

For the Nth time : I am not on this forum to solve problems (unless you deem it a problem that I am curious about DCs and ask others about that), just to get hopefully a full answer to the OQ and discuss it.

 

[DevonDiver]

Why not devote the time and energy into developing something really more useful.... like a shoelace tying machine? Or a bread buttering robot? There's probably an active target market for those... as some people would value the convenience in saved effort.

AI cannot replace proper gas management in technical diving. So there's zero benefit to it for a technical diver.

Hoping that technology can/will one day replace proper procedures is an antithesis to the technical diving mindset. Few technical divers are prone to abdicating responsibility for their survival; especially to fallible electronics...

Where that has to happen (ie eCCR) there has to be a significant effort to compensate via increased protocols and supplementary equipment. But with eCCR, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. That cost-benefit outcome will never be the case with open-circuit gas management.

Using a technical dive computer, for decompression diving, has a definite cost-benefit. There are advantages to 'real-time' decompression calculation. The disadvantage is primarily cost. BUT, technical divers will still precisely plan and prepare that dive.

Adding AI has no further benefit. Gas management calculation has been done in pre-dive planning. There is nothing further necessary on the dive itself. The diver doesn't enter the water unless they are 100% sure of their gas planning. And they have all the knowledge to accurately assess their gas usage for refining subsequent planning... on return from their dive. So... the cost-benefit to AI is virtually zero...

 

[Diver0001]

What Richard and I wonder about, is wether such unused feature has a value as a market driver/enabler for an effort on a common hardware in terms of R&D, budgets, testing, qualification, and test user base. In that sense, a feature that is useless and unused could still be beneficial to the tec divers, and it could even be a win situation for rec divers too if the hardware and the test protocols are done to the standards of tec from scratch (hum...maybe my wording is not very clear compared to Richard's...). On this hypotetical tec/rec multimode DC chip, the AI part would be completely disabled in the tec firmware, reducing the software development costs, increasing simplicity.

In terms of IT, generic architechtures usually turn out to be more complex, less reliable and more costly to develop, test and maintain. There is a good reason why the term KISS originated in eningeering and is widely used in IT...

I made no mystery that I am unexperienced in tec and diving in general and that this was a naive question. AFAIC, this discussion is not about my learning of tec diving, I do not know at this point if I ever will. I

Don't feel bad about asking the question. If you read back, nobody faulted you for that. You got people frustrated when it was explained and you pushed on with thinking of new reasons why it should be necessary. It's a way of brainstorming that some of the black-and-white thinkers (who are well represented in the tek community) have trouble with. I think you may have seen it as a creative process but to others it seemed as though you weren't listening.

Politicians do that too. They get an idea and keep spinning it until they find something (even if it isn't very good... or in many cases makes no sense whatsoever) that they can say supports their foregone conclusions. They start with the conclusion and then devise arguments to support that. Most people, therefore, conclude that "political logic" is an oxymoron. This is what you seemed to be doing on this thread so if you want to understand why you got so mcuh pushback, it might be good to read back and try to look at it from this perspective.

t is squarely about grasping wether in the mid term the development of tec and rec DCs could be united or not, and motivated by that curiosity.

Again, in engineering and IT, specific solutions to specific problems are generally preferred.

R..

 

[lv2dive]

So you agree we are discussing a solution for a need that does not exist?

Curiosity I understand but the original question has been answered.

Sigh.

...For the Nth time : I am not on this forum to solve problems (unless you deem it a problem that I am curious about DCs and ask others about that), just to get hopefully a full answer to the OQ and discuss it.

 

[hroark2112]

 

[fnog]

In terms of IT, generic architechtures usually turn out to be more complex, less reliable and more costly to develop, test and maintain. There is a good reason why the term KISS originated in eningeering and is widely used in IT...

Don't feel bad about asking the question. If you read back, nobody faulted you for that. You got people frustrated when it was explained and you pushed on with thinking of new reasons why it should be necessary. It's a way of brainstorming that some of the black-and-white thinkers (who are well represented in the tek community) have trouble with. I think you may have seen it as a creative process but to others it seemed as though you weren't listening.

Politicians do that too. They get an idea and keep spinning it until they find something (even if it isn't very good... or in many cases makes no sense whatsoever) that they can say supports their foregone conclusions. They start with the conclusion and then devise arguments to support that. Most people, therefore, conclude that "political logic" is an oxymoron. This is what you seemed to be doing on this thread so if you want to understand why you got so mcuh pushback, it might be good to read back and try to look at it from this perspective.

Again, in engineering and IT, specific solutions to specific problems are generally preferred.
R..

Ouch, I have not only been confused for a Mares board member, I may have been a polictician ! I don't take that as a compliment, but from that perspective I now understand better the animosity. I will just forget about that, blame it on not-mother-tongue usage, cultural differences and such. I hope I was at least perceive as a spinning politician rather than a nuke-button-under-the-finger politician.

In IT the economics and practices are quite different from microelectronics. I have seen disasters strike when managers pushed IT best practices on to silicon electrical engineering (but that is OT). In electronics, the availability of larger chips and smaller transistors means that one chip ends up collecting and integrating all kinds of "modes" and circuits that are seldom used but have good economic value. There are very good ways of verifying such integration is orthogonal, and does not increase risks, and in most of the cases it reduces the risk compared to multichip or specialised chip systems. That still respects KISS principles, because that is the way of simplicity in this silicon/Moore dynamic. That is something that may look a bit strange to those who draw their habits from IT or mechanical. Since electronics is just an unnecessary evil in CCR or Tx diving, I would understand if most tec divers look at the scuba equipment industry as being of a chemistry, fluid, and mechanics nature. That is also how we saw cars not so long ago.

Because of this difference between IT and electrons, I had a thought about some hypothetical common ASIC platform for a DC that can be used for both tec and rec, but I never thought for a second that there should be one firmware. The firmware for tec and rec would be better for separate projects, maybe teams. And the housing and looks and marketing of the different DCs derived from it, that would be yet another story.

 

[nimoh]

For the Nth time : I am not on this forum to solve problems (unless you deem it a problem that I am curious about DCs and ask others about that), just to get hopefully a full answer to the OQ and discuss it.

How are the answers you've received incomplete?

 

[Diver0001]

Ouch, I have not only been confused for a Mares board member, I may have been a polictician ! I don't take that as a compliment, but from that perspective I now understand better the animosity. I will just forget about that, blame it on not-mother-tongue usage, cultural differences and such. I hope I was at least perceive as a spinning politician rather than a nuke-button-under-the-finger politician.

I guess anyone being accused of communicating like a politician would not take it as a compliment

I'm going to guess you're Dutch by your writing and say that the only thing worse that communicating like a politician is to communicate like a Dutch politician....LOL. They first say nothing and then spend hours getting total agreement about it .... with one exception, of course, who we can't mention on the internet

that may look a bit strange to those who draw their habits from IT or mechanical.

You lost me but I'll agree with the bit I posted.

R..