Nitrox Class Without Tables or Math...OK?

[MikeFerrara]

Both you and Mike are far better divers than I am. Your humility is an example to all.

What did he say to elicit a comment like that? He stated a fact...that computers don't think. In fact I doubt there are many pieces of software that when tested (like regression testing or something) prove out error free. In addition transducers fail. In manufacturing, it's not uncommon to verify transducers or the machines that house them every day or every shift if they measure something critical. Depending on the type of transducer they don't always fail in such a way that's obvious. They just yield the wrong number which under certain conditions may be completely believeable. Sometimes the failure is even intermittent which can really get you.

Gosh, then he said he uses helium to control narcosis. That seems to work about the best for me.

I don't see where any one said they were a better diver than anybody else though you seem pretty concerned about that.

I have to ask Pete, what happened to make you so rude. I don't remember you always being that way...maybe I just didn't notice.

 

[Soggy]

What I find really funny is that, a few years ago, Mike and I had a very similar debate here and I was on NetDoc's side of the fence (no dives required, computers give you all the information you need). I bet if you search for "AaronBBrown" (my old screen name), you'll find a whole bunch of historical hilarity. I've learned a lot since then, Mike....

Here it is:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=18087

 

[H2Andy]

I have to ask Pete, what happened to make you so rude. I
don't remember you always being that way...maybe I just didn't notice.

you must be thinking of me. Pete's always been a rude bastich

:lol:

 

[MikeFerrara]

What I find really funny is that, a few years ago, Mike and I had a very similar debate here and I was on NetDoc's side of the fence (no dives required, computers give you all the information you need). I bet if you search for "AaronBBrown" (my old screen name), you'll find a whole bunch of historical hilarity. I've learned a lot since then, Mike....

Here it is:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=18087

That was fun reading. DSJ illustrated well what I'm getting at. I wonder what happened to him. I haven't heard from him in a long time.

I've since had the chance to see MHK demo the toxing diver rescue. While I still theink the risk of toxing on a recreational dive is low for a diver who can control their depth (there are many who can't) and it got me thinking. Since then I know at least one diver who toxed above their MOD on a dive at recreational depths...though it was in a cave. I heard there were other medical issues but I never heard what they were. I have to say that divers often have trouble learning to surface another diver controlling their speed/position in a rescue class. It would be that much more difficult with a convulsing diver. The problem here is not all agencies require the skill in OW and many nitrox students haven't even had a rescue class. I don't know what any divers chances are if they tox but if you're with the average diver you have none at all. I've only heard of the procedure that GUE teaches being used once but it worked.

Some agencies won't let an instructor add a skill like that to a class but that's one that I think should be taught early.

 

[Soggy]

While I still theink the risk of toxing on a recreational dive is low for a diver who can control their depth (there are many who can't) and it got me thinking.

I agree that toxing is unlikely and rare in recreational settings, but, there are a number of incidents where a diver became unconscious underwater where this same procedure could have been used. It's a good one to have in the book. In fact, I think we're going to work on it again this weekend during one of our team training dives....

 

[The Chairman]

I have to ask Pete, what happened to make you so rude. I don't remember you always being that way...maybe I just didn't notice.

You keep attacking me Mike... I just get tired of it way easier. So shoot me. I don't think I am the ONLY one who feels this way about your diatribes. I would be so bold as to say that it appears to me that you think that you are the only one who cares enough to teach things right and that all the rest of us are in it only to fleece the poor unsuspecting student. Yeah, that's how you really come off: at least to me. Would you rather I lie?

As for the comment about mix... again not pertinent to this discussion on NitrOx, but boy I guess we should worship the ground he walks on for diving it. Why else was it brought up but as a fallacious appeal to his authority. I guess I am remiss for not teaching mix in a NitrOx class as well. If you dive NitrOx to 80fsw and mistakenly believe that you are not impaired... well, you need a session on narcosis.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You keep attacking me Mike... I just get tired of it way easier. So shoot me. I don't think I am the ONLY one who feels this way about your diatribes. I would be so bold as to say that it appears to me that you think that you are the only one who cares enough to teach things right and that all the rest of us are in it only to fleece the poor unsuspecting student. Yeah, that's how you really come off: at least to me. Would you rather I lie?

I didn't attack you. I just disagreed with you. I voiced my opinion on a SDI class and tried to support my position. I don't recall saying anything about you at all...well untill sarcasm and personal attacks seemed to become the mode of the debate. No don't lie. Since you think that I think that I'm the only one who cares enough to teach what should be taught, let me clear that up. I know quit a few instructors who I have seen teach that I think are very fine instructors. There are others whom I've never seen teach but I think are probably very fine instructors.

At the same time there are many things in agency standards that trouble me. I say so. Once in a while it has even helped a few folks. You call my opinions diatribes. ok, you don't agree with me and you don't like my opinion. What the hell is this board really for? Say so and I'll leave or just throw the switch. If you don't like what I have to say about training and this is the way it's going to go that's probably your best bet. Otherwise we'll have to keep picking at eachother.

As for the comment about mix... again not pertinent to this discussion on NitrOx, but boy I guess we should worship the ground he walks on for diving it. Why else was it brought up but as a fallacious appeal to his authority. I guess I am remiss for not teaching mix in a NitrOx class as well. If you dive NitrOx to 80fsw and mistakenly believe that you are not impaired... well, you need a session on narcosis.

I think the helium thing only came in because of the sarcastic remarks you made about some of us thinking we have a superhuman tolerance to nitrogen or however you worded it. I, for one, absolutely do not believe that you should worship any man for any reason under any circumstances and I never got the impression that he or any one else wanted or expected your worship. And no, I don't think you should teach trimix in your nitrox class.

So there's impairment at 80 ft. I don't think that beepers are saving people or that they are going to. I do think poor dive skills are at issue and I do think that MANY recreational divers go too deep for their knowlege and skill level and I think that if a diver can't monitor or control his/her depth at 80 ft, I think the cause is more here than with narcosis. ooops, there's another one of my diatrabs.

Need a narcosis session? do you think? I've been through quit a few though I don't feel like I should go into any detail because I'll probably get accused of trying to get people to worship me or something. Is there something new going on or do you think that I just missed a bunch in those classes?

 

[LSDeep]

Come on Pete. You know good and well what Soggy means - 'cause he said it. But I'll re-state it:
If you are situationally aware you will not need to listen to alarms because there won't be any alarms.
That's not ignoring alarms.
That's avoiding alarms by planning, knowing where you are and what you're doing, by detecting the things that may cause an alarm before they do.
Sheeesh!
Rick

well one example comes to mind where i get alarms regular - teaching open water and using one of my air integrated computers i get a excessive air use alarm everytime i do shared air skills (i know its far fetched, but it an alarm )

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Get over it and move on to something constructive.

Or do as I occassionally do, call the guy an F'n A-hole, get it deleted, get a PM on it, and THEN I'm over it.

This would have been so much less painful a method here gents.



Shoot, I'm way better than you are......



Somebody with a brain cell please shut this train wreck down, or I'm going to call a sponsor or three and ask them if they really want to be part of this type of nonsense all day long.

 

[LSDeep]

More like, the rev limiter hasn't kicked in because I never exceeded 7000 rpm because I was paying attention.

Occasionally, I have dropped to 73 feet on a EAN50 mix. My computer, which has no knowledge of what mix I was breathing, didn't know that I had violated my MOD by 1 foot, and thus did not beep at me, However, I, being smarter than my computer, was able to recover from this error without being beeped at and flashed.

Hmm...violating, flashing...sounds like spring break in Panama City.

if your computer has "no knowledge" what mix youre breathing you dive with an air computer and ead's??? if i use my computer for nitrox dives i "dial in" the adequate mix before the dive and my computer has the "knowledge" and will sound of / blink etc. if i exceed a limit (willingly or not). while i have most alarms turned off on my computers for many less experienced divers this "annoying" alarms might well proof very useful to prevent serious consequences by alerting the less aware user in the very beginning stages of his mistake / potential problem.
unfortunately many less experienced divers are a bit forgetful about monitoring their vital infos as often as they should (any instrument only helps if you use it - means look at it regularly). sometimes the instr / dm / diveguide / buddy is this alarmfunction and on most modern computers you have this little additional buddies build in .