Nitrox class question

[MHK]

lal7176 once bubbled...


Thats a good point mike as we never even touched on how to rescue a toxing diver. It would be a good skill to learn. What are the chances of a average joe getting toxed out as long as he adheres to his MOD. I personally never push the limits of my MOD at 1.4 po2 just for that reason. I limit myself to no more than 100ft on 32% although i know it is good for 111 ft at 1.4. I may dip down beyond a 100ft but wont spend my entire dive at 111 ft.

Rescuing a toxing diver would seem to be much more important on the technical side as they seem to experience momentary higher po2 levels when switching to decompression gasses during their ascent. Im not a decompression diver or technical diver and am going on what i have read so take it for what its worth and please feel free to correct me.

I actually don't know the chances of it happening, but hopefully it's minimal. But I guess my point, or more accurately is my frsutration with the industry, is that why are we in such a hurry to push students through the process such to the point where we are leaving out the most critical piece of information in the class at the expense of not doing dives??

I think it's incredible that less then 10 years ago Nitrox was so feared and misunderstood by the recreational agencies that they wouldn't even allow it into DEMA and condeming it to military and commercial applications only, and denouncing it as snake oil and voodoo gas. Now fast forward about 8 years and they'll sell you a card on the internet without ever meeting an instructor or getting in the water.

Ask most Nitrox certified divers how to rescue a toxing diver and they'll tell you more often then not, put his reg back in his mouth and get him to the surface asap.. That's wrong for so many reasons, it'll likely blow any chance of survival, so why take a class that they don't even bother teaching you the most rudimenatry of survival skills???

Just my thoughts, but I know if I wanted to learn how to golf, I wouldn't go to the golf pro that promised me the shortest and fastest classes, so why do we accept that in scuba???

Later

 

[MikeFerrara]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...


Students should lean in basic EANx to keep a sea floor under them of 95 ft or shallower, when they are using EAN36.

That falls under MOD calculations, or they can look on their plastic dive tables for EAN36.

Right! No wall diving with nitrox. Where do you get this stuff. LOL

I do just the oposit with my students. They must demonstrate that they can monitor and maintain depth without a floor under them. Look Ma! No net!

 

[PhilD]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...


Students should lean in basic EANx to keep a sea floor under them of 95 ft or shallower, when they are using EAN36.

That may be okay for qual dives, but in the real world is not always possible. I was diving at a rig last weekend with a 200' bottom and using EAN32. I chose the mix on the depth I wanted to go (boat limit of 100' anyway) but still wanted the benefits of Nitrox as it was three dives in a relatively short time frame. Ihave used EAN40 with a deep bottom when the dive plan called for it. I am more concerned with maximizing my mix than worrying about finding the bottom.

 

[MikeFerrara]

MHK once bubbled...



Just my thoughts, but I know if I wanted to learn how to golf, I wouldn't go to the golf pro that promised me the shortest and fastest classes, so why do we accept that in scuba???

Later

Because we're all convinced that it's easy and it's safe. It say so in all the diving magazines and agency texts. Remember that's it's statistically as safe as bowling. LOL

 

[MHK]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Because we're all convinced that it's easy and it's safe. It say so in all the diving magazines and agency texts. Remember that's it's statistically as safe as bowling. LOL

Hey you read the same article as I did?? ;-)

I never understood the mentality of a student that wants to rush through training just so they can get another card in their hand. If I'm paying an instructor I want every minute I can get with them, not what little they can get away with..

But then again that's why I don't teach too many OW classes ;-)

Later

 

[Dryglove]

MHK once bubbled...

Ask most Nitrox certified divers how to rescue a toxing diver and they'll tell you more often then not, put his reg back in his mouth and get him to the surface asap.. That's wrong for so many reasons, it'll likely blow any chance of survival, so why take a class that they don't even bother teaching you the most rudimenatry of survival skills???

I remember reading a really good thread on this a while back. It might have been written by you but im not sure.

If i remember right the thread told the rescuing diver to place the reg back in the toxing divers mouth and weight till his condition passes before ascending so he will not result in having an AGE as the expanding gas possibly wont exit from a toxing diver. I also remember reading that the rescuing diver should place himself behind the toxing diver and use one hand to hold his reg in his mouth and the other for controlling buoyancy for the ascent. Once again i am no expert in this so dont follow this advice as it may be wrong.

 

[MHK]

lal7176 once bubbled...


I remember reading a really good thread on this a while back. It might have been written by you but im not sure.

If i remember right the thread told the rescuing diver to place the reg back in the toxing divers mouth and weight till his condition passes before ascending so he will not result in having an AGE as the expanding gas possibly wont exit from a toxing diver. I also remember reading that the rescuing diver should place himself behind the toxing diver and use one hand to hold his reg in his mouth and the other for controlling buoyancy for the ascent. Once again i am no expert in this so dont folow this advice as it may be wrong.

I wrote a complete analysis on this subject a while back, but with all due respect, your analysis isn't accurate so I would emphasis to other's that they not follow it..

Ask yourself a few questions about your suggestion:

1) Why is that diver toxing??

Answer: He's mix is too hot for his depth..

Query, why then put HIS reg back in his mouth??? That's one of the reasons you have a long hose.. Your not toxing which is a safe bet that your mix is the more correct gas at that point.

2) If he's convulsing how are your going to get the reg in his mouth???

Answer: You aren't.. You put the reg up to his mouth, spread the mouthpiece [ which is why we recommend against the custom fitting mouthpieces] and purge your reg so when he stops convulsing rather then swallowing water he'll likely inhale your air..

3) What is the position of the rescuer??

4) When to move the diver??

5) When to stop the ascent??

6) What to do at the surface??

These are just a few considerations that are generaly never discused, demonstrated or practiced in Nitrox classes and certainly in classes where no dives were required..

Later

 

[Dryglove]

MHK once bubbled...


I wrote a complete analysis on this subject a while back, but with all due respect, your analysis isn't accurate so I would emphasis to other's that they not follow it..

I didnt think it was which why i was asking. Anychance you still have the article and can post it for a refresher of what to do and what not to do. As you can see i was pretty far off base.

 

[Big-t-2538]

Let's see what I remember...

3 - Get behind/on top of the diver so you can control both where your reg is and the bouyancy of the ascent

4 - Only move the diver after the convulsions have stopped. As gas will not escape the body while the airway is closed off

5 - It is likely that the diver will tox and convulse again on the way to the surface, so you stop the ascent again when this happens....place your reg up to the toxing diver's mouth, and purge

6 - I would probably first ditch extra lead once on the surface...Immediately signal for help...begin rescue breathing if necessary

 

[Karl_in_Calif]

MHK once bubbled...


I wrote a complete analysis on this subject a while back, but with all due respect, your analysis isn't accurate so I would emphasis to other's that they not follow it..

Ask yourself a few questions about your suggestion:

1) Why is that diver toxing??

Answer: He's mix is too hot for his depth..

Query, why then put HIS reg back in his mouth??? That's one of the reasons you have a long hose.. Your not toxing which is a safe bet that your mix is the more correct gas at that point.

2) If he's convulsing how are your going to get the reg in his mouth???

Answer: You aren't.. You put the reg up to his mouth, spread the mouthpiece [ which is why we recommend against the custom fitting mouthpieces] and purge your reg so when he stops convulsing rather then swallowing water he'll likely inhale your air..

3) What is the position of the rescuer??

4) When to move the diver??

5) When to stop the ascent??

6) What to do at the surface??

These are just a few considerations that are generaly never discused, demonstrated or practiced in Nitrox classes and certainly in classes where no dives were required..

Later

If you have a toxing student, hmmm.

1) You probably went too deep.

2) You probably messed up the mix.

3) Your diving career is probably over.